New BMW Z4 M40i - Serious Boxster Challenger?
06-06-2018, 11:31 PM
#16
Drifting
I think this talk of BMW "losing its way" is pretty much nonsense. The company is evolving. Maybe they're going a little different direction than Porsche, but virtually all automakers are. It's not fair, as an enthusiast, to label them as such. Particularly because they seem to be doing just fine from a business perspective.
Also, as having previously owned both an E36 M3, an E92 335i, and an F82 M4, I'd like to feel that I have a pretty good handle on what they've been up to in the enthusiast market, recently and historically. The E36 was a special car. The F82 is even more so. It's closer to being as capable as a 911 than many would care to admit. Silly gripes such as sound or electric steering have derailed how amazing the car truly is as being a true "do-it-all" performance car that you can also comfortably fit grown adults in the back seat of (yes, the coupe... the M3 is even more astonishingly practical).
But again, it's not apples to apples to compare the M division with any Porsche, or even the Z4 to a Boxster. I don't think the purpose is to compete head to head. I don't consider the Z4 a true sports car. It's going to appeal to a different type of driver. Somebody mentioned a country club... that's the target demographic. Of course there will be some overlap with potential Boxster customers, but to put it in perspective I can't really see a Z4 being looked at as a dedicated track car. People are going to buy these to commute to work on a sunny day, or drive to their lake house on the weekend- not necessarily to an autocross or DE, like many Porsche owners would do.
Anyway, TL;DR, I'm not mad at BMW, and think they're actually doing a good job positioning themselves to appeal to a wider variety of markets than really any other German automaker. This may appear to come at some sort of compromise to their performance division, but I don't really think that's the case as well. Of course the M4 took up much more space in my garage than my E36 did, but so does a 991 compared to a 964, or even a 997. Turbocharging, sound, steering... all things Porsche has compromised with as well, while also categorically improving performance across the board, which is what I used to think was actually important. I really thought they would have done a lot to quell the dissent with the introduction of the M2 as well... which is a FANTASTIC CAR that lives up to any bit of old-school nostalgia that keeps people taking shots at the "new" BMW.
I'm really not sure what would keep some of you happy. You're not even buying the cars, you've moved on to the next step in the logical progression as an enthusiast in owning a Porsche... why are you even bothering to look in the rearview mirror and judge BMW for not making the E39 M5 anymore? It makes even less sense than the unmitigated assault by some on the 718...
Also, as having previously owned both an E36 M3, an E92 335i, and an F82 M4, I'd like to feel that I have a pretty good handle on what they've been up to in the enthusiast market, recently and historically. The E36 was a special car. The F82 is even more so. It's closer to being as capable as a 911 than many would care to admit. Silly gripes such as sound or electric steering have derailed how amazing the car truly is as being a true "do-it-all" performance car that you can also comfortably fit grown adults in the back seat of (yes, the coupe... the M3 is even more astonishingly practical).
But again, it's not apples to apples to compare the M division with any Porsche, or even the Z4 to a Boxster. I don't think the purpose is to compete head to head. I don't consider the Z4 a true sports car. It's going to appeal to a different type of driver. Somebody mentioned a country club... that's the target demographic. Of course there will be some overlap with potential Boxster customers, but to put it in perspective I can't really see a Z4 being looked at as a dedicated track car. People are going to buy these to commute to work on a sunny day, or drive to their lake house on the weekend- not necessarily to an autocross or DE, like many Porsche owners would do.
Anyway, TL;DR, I'm not mad at BMW, and think they're actually doing a good job positioning themselves to appeal to a wider variety of markets than really any other German automaker. This may appear to come at some sort of compromise to their performance division, but I don't really think that's the case as well. Of course the M4 took up much more space in my garage than my E36 did, but so does a 991 compared to a 964, or even a 997. Turbocharging, sound, steering... all things Porsche has compromised with as well, while also categorically improving performance across the board, which is what I used to think was actually important. I really thought they would have done a lot to quell the dissent with the introduction of the M2 as well... which is a FANTASTIC CAR that lives up to any bit of old-school nostalgia that keeps people taking shots at the "new" BMW.
I'm really not sure what would keep some of you happy. You're not even buying the cars, you've moved on to the next step in the logical progression as an enthusiast in owning a Porsche... why are you even bothering to look in the rearview mirror and judge BMW for not making the E39 M5 anymore? It makes even less sense than the unmitigated assault by some on the 718...
I bought my first BMW in 1983 while in college and have owned a dozen in total. I used to go buy the BMW which most suited my needs at the time but I just sold my old X3 and didn’t replace it with a BMW as I find the current offerings bland dynamically and overpriced (although the styling is generally good).
06-07-2018, 07:57 AM
#17
I do drive a 2015 550 as a daily driver, but seriously, if you like one over the other its like everything else. If there was only one kind of car, be it Mustang, Cuda or XKE the world wouldn't be what it is. Given that we can vacation at the beach, Yosemite, the desert, mountains or in our own back yard, marry blondes, brunettes or redheads, the world wouldn't be so interesting. This is what makes things great. One is not really any better than another. Guys who like cars, like cars. Even the yugo can draw a crowd among car guys. Enjoy yourself and don't worry so much about what goof ***** say in jest (or the non car guys who mean that silliness). When Joe Dirt says that only the Plymouth Roadrunner is the car to have, let it go and as you walk away say 'Def Leppard sucks".
06-07-2018, 08:59 AM
#18
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Maybe I shouldn't sell my M Roadster and instead sell the Cayman S I thought I would replace it with since everything they make is dreck. It may be a valuable classic soon. I do enjoy my E82 128i. It is the best all around car I have owned over the last 40+ years. But, it is also very different than the E46 323Ci we bought for our daughter a few months ago. Cant say which is nicer since I played with the 128i suspension a wee bit.
06-07-2018, 09:03 AM
#19
To witness BMW's fall from grace, one need look no further than to its current convoluted naming scheme. My God. We've got M, M Sport, Gran Turismo, Gran Coupe, Coupe, Wagon, Convertible, i, d, e, ActiveHybrid, sDrive, xDrive, iDrive, Luxury Line, xLine, Sport Line, M Sport Line, X-Series, Z-Series, i-Series, M-Series, Alpina, etc., et al.
Seriously?
In their push to create cars that no body asked for to fill automotive niches that no one knew ever existed, their model range has just gone totally bonkers. Anyone here old enough to remember when there was just a 3 Series, 5 Series, and 7 Series?
I was a huge fan of the marque in the '90s, but they lost my vote a long time ago.
Seriously?
In their push to create cars that no body asked for to fill automotive niches that no one knew ever existed, their model range has just gone totally bonkers. Anyone here old enough to remember when there was just a 3 Series, 5 Series, and 7 Series?
I was a huge fan of the marque in the '90s, but they lost my vote a long time ago.
Still loving the fact my Spyder has no auto stop button, and the only "i" it's got is when bluetoothing my iphone to the Sound package basic audio system :-)
06-07-2018, 10:20 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
How observant, you must have noticed that I just had an M4 and that I really like the M2.
Seriously all sarcasm aside, I'm definitely in their target demographic and I still wouldn't rule out that I may end up with an M2 someday. That said, I'm also an enthusiast so there's several points I won't argue. I don't care for the new 3/4 series either (feels like a Lexus, which is not a compliment), and have long moved on from the 05 X3 I had (first with an Evoque, which sucked, then to the Macan I have now, which is amazing), so I agree that nothing else in their lineup interests me as far as what I'd personally own... but if I were looking at a rental lot and had a choice between a BMW and almost any other automaker, I'd at least be inclined to choose BMW. What that means to me is that BMW has absolutely NOT "lost their way", they've actually figured out a way to make more people "their target demographic" while still putting out exceptionally good enthusiast cars... which is pretty much exactly what I said in my earlier post.
What I think everyone needs to come to terms with is that only a very select handful of people want the "driver's car" experience from a few decades ago (e.g., manual transmission, high-revving naturally aspirated engine, small dimensions, light, hydraulic steering, little to no sound dampening, etc. etc.), so virtually NOBODY makes those types of "mass market" cars that appeal to an enthusiast base anymore outside of niche brands like Porsche. There are still examples of cars targeted specifically at the enthusiast market, but by and large those days are gone. (One could argue Mazda, and have a solid argument... but it's not German so thus clearly has no relevance on this forum.) There's many reasons for this, but ultimately it just ends up being that the market has evolved, so then must the manufacturers.
But then there's BMW, did I mention the M2 is amazing? And priced reasonably enough to put it within reach of folks who aren't considered affluent (and then there's the M240I that's even more affordable). I swear, all the folks mad at BMW either haven't driven these cars or wouldn't buy what they're asking for anyway, because the answer is right there, staring you in the face.
Seriously all sarcasm aside, I'm definitely in their target demographic and I still wouldn't rule out that I may end up with an M2 someday. That said, I'm also an enthusiast so there's several points I won't argue. I don't care for the new 3/4 series either (feels like a Lexus, which is not a compliment), and have long moved on from the 05 X3 I had (first with an Evoque, which sucked, then to the Macan I have now, which is amazing), so I agree that nothing else in their lineup interests me as far as what I'd personally own... but if I were looking at a rental lot and had a choice between a BMW and almost any other automaker, I'd at least be inclined to choose BMW. What that means to me is that BMW has absolutely NOT "lost their way", they've actually figured out a way to make more people "their target demographic" while still putting out exceptionally good enthusiast cars... which is pretty much exactly what I said in my earlier post.
What I think everyone needs to come to terms with is that only a very select handful of people want the "driver's car" experience from a few decades ago (e.g., manual transmission, high-revving naturally aspirated engine, small dimensions, light, hydraulic steering, little to no sound dampening, etc. etc.), so virtually NOBODY makes those types of "mass market" cars that appeal to an enthusiast base anymore outside of niche brands like Porsche. There are still examples of cars targeted specifically at the enthusiast market, but by and large those days are gone. (One could argue Mazda, and have a solid argument... but it's not German so thus clearly has no relevance on this forum.) There's many reasons for this, but ultimately it just ends up being that the market has evolved, so then must the manufacturers.
But then there's BMW, did I mention the M2 is amazing? And priced reasonably enough to put it within reach of folks who aren't considered affluent (and then there's the M240I that's even more affordable). I swear, all the folks mad at BMW either haven't driven these cars or wouldn't buy what they're asking for anyway, because the answer is right there, staring you in the face.
06-07-2018, 10:37 AM
#21
Drifting
^We're definitely a minority.
Sales numbers talk.
Sales numbers talk.
06-07-2018, 12:34 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
This iteration of Z4 has potential. The fact that they switched to rag top shows the intent. It is likely to be better than previous versions. But, out of the box, heavier than Boxster; that's a strike one! It doesn't seem to use gimmicky synthetic exhaust sounds into cabin, which is good. Pre-production previews are positive. Yet, I am gonna speculate that Boxster will have better driving experience overall. In a direct comparison, Boxster will come out on top; it is just too good. Still, this Z4 could be second-best in the class.
Last edited by spyderphile; 06-08-2018 at 12:00 PM. Reason: typo
06-07-2018, 01:17 PM
#24
BMW has become the Lexus of Germany.
06-07-2018, 01:21 PM
#25
Addict
Rennlist Member
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BMW seems to be engineered to hold up well while the car is under warranty.
06-07-2018, 01:32 PM
#26
Drifting
06-07-2018, 03:09 PM
#27
I was speaking in terms of style. BMW makes busy, flashy cars now, rather than the simple powerful designs of yesteryear. And the owner group seems to reflect that. They used to make desirable drivers cars. Now they make tacky luxobarges.
i used to be a huge BMW fan, owned three of them. You couldn’t pay me to drive one now.
i used to be a huge BMW fan, owned three of them. You couldn’t pay me to drive one now.
06-08-2018, 01:40 AM
#28
Drifting
I was speaking in terms of style. BMW makes busy, flashy cars now, rather than the simple powerful designs of yesteryear. And the owner group seems to reflect that. They used to make desirable drivers cars. Now they make tacky luxobarges.
i used to be a huge BMW fan, owned three of them. You couldn’t pay me to drive one now.
i used to be a huge BMW fan, owned three of them. You couldn’t pay me to drive one now.
While others see bmw producing ‘exceptionally good enthusiasts cars’.
06-08-2018, 07:12 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Anyway, I thought you said "the styling is generally good". So what are you saying, exactly? That you couldn't be paid to drive one?
Curious, have you driven an M2? I don't think they're much to look at either but they're a blast to drive. I just want to know if my time would be better spent arguing with a hole in the ground.
06-09-2018, 01:02 AM
#30
Drifting
Bad day?
Anyway, I thought you said "the styling is generally good". So what are you saying, exactly? That you couldn't be paid to drive one?
Curious, have you driven an M2? I don't think they're much to look at either but they're a blast to drive. I just want to know if my time would be better spent arguing with a hole in the ground.
Anyway, I thought you said "the styling is generally good". So what are you saying, exactly? That you couldn't be paid to drive one?
Curious, have you driven an M2? I don't think they're much to look at either but they're a blast to drive. I just want to know if my time would be better spent arguing with a hole in the ground.