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Old 03-12-2018, 01:29 AM
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Default Antigravity Lith-Ion batteries

i figured Iíd start a thread on this. I am highly intrigued, especially if they have a drop in mount for Porscheís. The price is significantly less than the other lith ion batteries I have found online, and I like the jump start feature as well.

Its worth mentioning that Antigravity is a Rennlist sponsor.

https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...omotive/rs-30/

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Old 03-12-2018, 10:15 AM
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I was not aware of those. Looks nice at 12 lbs. Interested in feedback.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:33 AM
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:03 PM
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I was wondering about how to charge it...Does this battery have a built in charge controller? Iíd hope so.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:43 PM
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I am hoping Scott from Antigravity will drop in on this thread and answer some of these questions. I was getting the impression that some of the charging/voltage issues had been addressed since the post referenced above from 2014. I am convinced that battery technology is going to get increasingly better in a fairly short timespan and am hoping to shed 30+ lbs from my Spyder in the process.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sh944 View Post
I am hoping Scott from Antigravity will drop in on this thread and answer some of these questions. I was getting the impression that some of the charging/voltage issues had been addressed since the post referenced above from 2014. I am convinced that battery technology is going to get increasingly better in a fairly short timespan and am hoping to shed 30+ lbs from my Spyder in the process.
+1 looking for complete solution incl. mounting.
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Old 03-12-2018, 06:11 PM
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Hi all, Scott from Antigravity Batteries.... thanks to il pirata for notifying me of the thread.,,,

Well you guys are fast.... you're beating me to the punch. I was going to do a thread to Introduce the company over the next couple days and make a specific a lithium battery info thread to clear up some of the misinformation, But I was preparing some info,and we are developing a kit... so I was waiting a bit to showcase it.... Anyway, I'll give some basic info below to cover some of the bases, and will answer any questions you guys might have going forward. Then later in this week or next I will start a specific thread about us and go into some deeper stuff. Also excuse my writing is I mispell or drop words... I tend to write longer informational based stuff and I don't have a lot of time to proof read always...

Lithium is a bit misunderstood m;uch of the time as I saw from a thread posted above back in 2012.... But the fact is our new batteries have changed the game in a big way, meaning they have all the protection necessary so you CAN'T over-discharge and damage them which has been one of the previous issues with Lithium Batteries in street use applications. Additionally we have a feature we call our RE-START Technology that is part of the full on-board Battery Management system incorporated into our Batteries. This system allows the battery to intelligently monitor itself... and if it notices a discharge that comes close to draining itself dead it will put itself into a "sleep mode" to prevent further discharge... yet it will save just enough energy to allow for about 5 more starts. For example, if you left the key in the ignition, or you left your lights on, or you stored the car during the winter and come back to a dead battery...well, with the RE-START feature you just simply press a button located on the top of the battery which "awakens" the battery then start your vehicle and drive off, no jump starter not assistance needed. It saves you from a dead battery emergency. But additionally the RE-START feature prevents the #1 reason for a lithium battery (or lead/acid battery) to fail and be damaged, which is accidental over-discharge. This battery is the first to have these features... It's well beyond what Braille, Porsche or any other company offers. And top it off we are significantly and massively less expensive that those other companies, but don't think its inferior whatsoever. Those might seem like big words, but we've been through it before.... For example in 2013 we created arguably the first mini jump starters which we called the MICRO-START, it changed the jump-starter Industry and then became a new category with tons of companies making them now. But our MICRO-START XP-10 got named "Best Rated Jump Starter" by Consumer Reports in 2014.... So even if you haven't heard of us realize we are fully legitimate, and a very cutting edge company when we are talking Lithium-Ion Motorsports/Powersports products.

There is a ton of info available if you will want to learn about lithium, and if you plan on going the lithium route... but the cool thing is with the new Batteries we have eliminated about 90% of anything that would cause failure of the battery so that means anyone can do lithium now and not worry about the higher cost. Some applications are better than other for lithium, but if you want to drop weight and are coming more from the Performance side... this is it... there is NOTHING around that can compete with the cost per pound of weight loss and actual better starting performance. To lose 40 pounds in one shot in Carbon Fiber or Titanium is 10s of thousands of dollars... For our battery $700 drop roughly 40lbs and get better starting AND a feature that won't leave you stranded. We expect the mounting kit will be frome $70 to $100 dollar projected.

Also, I am so excited to be on Rennlist because we just purchased a 2016 GT3 RS... so I will be able to show the install, tell about how all is going, and how long the battery can sit in the car and give other info as we continue to develop the mounting kits and other developments. I will also be using our much Smaller batteries in the RS to show what you can do if your a strictly Track Guy who wants the lowest weight possible. So it will be cool for all interested in this technology.

Here is the link to the RS-30 battery that will be the best bet for a direct replacement battery from Antigravity... yes we make smaller and lighter batteries that can also be used in Daily Driver to world class Race cars, but the RS 30 was designed for the requirements of Street/Race use specifically...being it has more Amp Hours than our other models and is the one I would suggest across the board for any Hi-Performance Street use/daily driver Cars. Vipers, Porsches, Mustangs, Corvettes etc... https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...omotive/rs-30/

Below I am going to run through some things about lithium to get the conversation going and hopefully answer questions... it will touch on whatever is coming off the top of my head free form at the moment. Then later we can get into more specific details.

1- The RS-30 battery we just came out with is our new more "Street Performance" Battery. 30Amp Hours, over 1000 Cranking Amps. I am currently designing a Plug and Play drop in kit for it so you will be able to easily mount it in any of the P-Car that use the typical Group 48 batteries (I think most all of them.) My objective is to create an installation kit that anyone can do even if your not mechanically inclined....There will be no modifications or drilling. But we will have to look at the mounts from other models... We are making a bottom plate mounting system as a good number of the models already use. But we don't know all the mounting systems used in all the cars yet.... But just note our priority is drop in fit. This battery is physically Smaller than the stock battery so we are making a footing for it. I hope to show you example by weeks end.

2- There are NO Charging issues with using a Lithium battery in a standard 12v Automotive/Motorcycle/Powersports/ charging system. They are standardized in most ALL vehicles and our Lithium batteries works fine and recharge fine in these system WITHOUT any changes whatsoever. The only anomalies would be AFTER MARKET race systems where you can adjust the charging voltage.. but that is oddball stuff. I am talking standard vehicles. So you are fine with a Lithium Battery in your P-Cars. You main concern will be Amp Hours which are the Capacity of the Battery. Some of the older Porsches have a higher Parasitic Drain on the battery than the latest models. In that case you might want to monitor how long you car can site before it starts to drop the voltage significantly on the battery... keep in mind our RE-START battery will not be hurt by over-discharge since it will put itself to sleep... but other Lithium and LEad acid batteries can be drained and when you over-discharge a battery that is where the cell damage occurs to the battery whether lead/acid or lithium.

3-The Lithium Batteries charge PERFECTLY FINE of the Automotive Charging system.... BUT where problems can arise is NOT from the Cars system but rather from the aftermarket chargers you might use. You DO NOT want to use a Lead/Acid charger on a Lithium Battery because many of the Lead/Acid chargers have a De-sulfate mode that can spike high voltages to a Lithium Battery and damage it. Also lead/acid chargers/maintainers cycle the battery more because Lead/Acid batteries have an effect called Natural Discharge... which means they will self-discharge themselves even when they are sitting with nothing drawing energy from them... so a lead/acid charger keeps topping it off. Yet lithium has a very low self discharge and a lithium charger understands this and charges it correctly when needed. Additionally a lead battery is 6 cells inside while lithium is based on 4 cells so there are intricacies in that equation I don't want to get into now.. but it means the Lead/Acid charger reads the lithium wrong and tends to over-charge it. But again a Cars charging system is NOT like a stand alone charger and it charges the lithium correctly.

4-Lithium batteries are significantly more energy dense than lead/acid in terms of Cranking Power... for example if you have the same physical size of a lead acid car battery vs lithium , the lithium would be producing about 5-6 times the cranking power... but lithium has Less actual Amp hour in most batteries because to make a 70Ah lithium battery to compete with a 70Ah Lead/Acid won't make sense because the lithium battery would have about 6 times the cranking power of the lead/acid (which really isn't needed) and the cost of 70Ah of lithium would make the battery very expensive. So with it being better at delivering high pulse discharge and being more effective at higher current constant current discharge you really don't need the higher Amp hour capacity.. So that is why a 30Ah battery will work fine compared to the 70Ah in It will still start the car much better and offer a high enough capacity for emergency lighting... but to be honest if you were talking the car just sitting there at a very low amp draw the lead acid would last longer powering that low amp draw because it is has more than twice the Amp hours. But if you were to continually start the cars the Lithium at 30Ah would utterly demolish the lead acid battery... for example loosly speaking say the 70Ah lead acid could start the car 100 times.... well the much smaller lithium would start it like 175 to 200 times. I'm just trying to relate the difference in the delivery of energy... its not apples to apples.... Lithium-better starting and Cranking power, Lead/Acid more reserve capacity. That is a broad stoke view.

5- Lithium Dangers... There is the potential for a lithium battery to go into thermal runaway if over-discharged and fast charged again, and there are other variable... But the are not common, but you should be aware of them. Most the lithium manufacturers do not have low-voltage cuts off and other protections and that can lead to many Lithium batteries failing after a severe over-discharge or if the customer did something ike allow the battery to deeply over-discharge down to 2 volts then jumpstarted which would cause the car it would start fast charging the lithium and a potential for the battery over-heating and smoldering could occur with the Thermal Runaway.. but that is worst case scenario. But keep in mind that is why I am so excited about our new RE-START Technology... it prevents those over-discharge that can lead to the thermal runaway or other damages. WE have those protections other don't.

6- Last because I'm getting tired of typing.... You can actually use most any size lithium battery in your car... but you need to consider you application. For example we have a 1" x 4" by 3" battery... used in alot of Sport and Race bikes.... it can start a V8 truck or any Porsche easily... but it only has 2Amp hours.... so would you want to use this in your passenger car even though it can start it? . No way, because it has no capacity. Additionally batteries do provide a buffer to the charging system so you don't want to go too small... but that is relative... we have 600 Horsepower Drifiting cars using a 7Amp hour battery that weighs 3 pound and there is no issu.

Ok that's about it for now...
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:40 PM
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Will you guys offer a specialized charger for the lithium batteries? Is one even necessary?
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:35 PM
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Iíd expect, at the very least, that these batteries have a proper charge circuit built in? Current from the alternator canít be appropriate for lithium battery charging.

Edit-I see that itís stated that the alternator works with these batteries, so I must ask, whatís the warranty on these batteries?
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by various cheeses View Post
Will you guys offer a specialized charger for the lithium batteries? Is one even necessary?
We sell the Optimate Brand of Lithium Charger... it is the best we have found. With that being said, we will be making a charger, but it will be built by Optimate. We don't specialize in Charger manufacturing and we used to have one about 2 years ago but the Optimate was better... so we just started selling theirs.

As far as needing one.... it is good to have one at your disposal and you may need it occasionally... but you wouldn't really have to have one. But for example..... say you over-discharge the RS-30 battery, and you get your car started by pressing the RE-START battery.... well you still have to drive enough to recharge the RS-30 again, and that would take about 20 minutes of driving to get a fair charge on it, or about an 40 to 50 minutes to get a more complete charge. So if that case you might want to just put the RS-30 on the Lithium charger rather than driving it around to recharge the battery. So that is one scenario where having a charger is good. Or if you store it for a long time and don't want to worry about the RS-30 putting itself to sleep and losing your settings. You just leave it on the Optimate which will maintain it during longer storage times.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrg02D View Post
Iíd expect, at the very least, that these batteries have a proper charge circuit built in? Current from the alternator canít be appropriate for lithium battery charging.

Edit-I see that itís stated that the alternator works with these batteries, so I must ask, whatís the warranty on these batteries?
In regards to the charging form the Alternator... There is not need to have any circuit inside that controls charging within or to the battery. Lithium-Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4-the battery chemistry) operates within the same voltage range that a Lead/Acid battery but with a minor variation in it nominal voltage. 12.6 for Lead and 12.8 for LIfepo4. But it usually rests at about 13.2v which is a tad better for starting. So with any 12v system the battery is fine. In fact for years before we came out with the RE-STARTs we only had Cell Balancing without the other protections and that worked perfect and still does since we still sell that format. The issue is if a customer over-discharges the battery it can ruin it....

Warranty is 3-year total... 2 year free replacement and the 1 prorated.
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:09 AM
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I had antigravity battery in my bmw race car. It was fine for many usage. Never had issues. I did leave on lithium maintainer charger when not in use. Always fired up perfectly.
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:24 PM
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My Xp-10 is amazing. People have no idea when I give them that to start their cars. Always impressed. In for more info for the Porsche plug and play kit.
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:17 PM
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3 year warranty means 3 year life to me. Being $700 battery, plus taxes, shipping, and lithium charger, makes this more of a battery for racers due to the light weight. I donít see how the rest of us can justify the cost over a regular battery. Keeping an emergency jump starter around isnít all that involved. Not looking to criticize, just to give my view, which I bet many of us share.

I put my lead acid battery on a trickle charger when Iím not going to drive it for several days. I may go for the portable jump start battery for that day that is guaranteed to come when my lead acid craps out.
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrg02D View Post
3 year warranty means 3 year life to me. Being $700 battery, plus taxes, shipping, and lithium charger, makes this more of a battery for racers due to the light weight. I don’t see how the rest of us can justify the cost over a regular battery. Keeping an emergency jump starter around isn’t all that involved. Not looking to criticize, just to give my view, which I bet many of us share.

I put my lead acid battery on a trickle charger when I’m not going to drive it for several days. I may go for the portable jump start battery for that day that is guaranteed to come when my lead acid craps out.
That's an absolutely fair argument, and I understand your perspective completely. But I will present some other perspectives so you might better understand..... and if in time you feel you think lithium is an option you are interested in you will know where there are some available. I'll start with some rational perspectives... then go to the emotional ones.

1- About our Warranty... you statement of a 3 year warranty means a three year life isn't really accurate if we look at logical data. For example a very high quality Lead/Acid is usually stated to have about 750-100 Cycles and our lithium cells are rated at 2000-2500 cycles. A cycle is a full discharge and recharge of the battery. While a FULL discharge and recharge doesn't usually happen in Autos due to their charging systems, it is still relevant on smaller depth discharges also. So the cycle life ratings are the most accurate way to determine a battery lifespan from a technical perspective of how many actual cycles can the battery withstand before losing its life. So our Grade A Lithium Cells are rated at more that TWICE the cycle performance than Lead/Acid and that alone will get you more than twice the Lifespan of Lead/Acid provided both types of batteries are maintained properly. Now add to the fact that our RS-30 RE-START battery WILL NOT allow itself to be over-discharged by the user so this creates a scenario where our battery will never be exposed to those over-discharges, and a scenario where you don't have to maintain it because it will not allow you to over-discharge it.

2- So why a 3 year period.... Well Odyssey Batteries, a Premium Lead Acid Battery Brand, and our competitor Braille, a very expensive Lithium battery that has NO protections as we do, and yet charges fully two times the cost as we do, both offer a 2 year warranty.... but that warranty is void if you over-discharge EITHER of those batteries. Yet our Warranty is 2 years FREE replacement and the 3rd year prorated. So we are saying you get a FREE replacement in 2 years because you can't over-discharge and damage our battery, and the competitors are saying if you make a mistake and over-discharge your battery your out of luck and NO Warranty. So that alone blows away Odyssey (Enersys) which is a billion dollar company and Braille, who wont warranty any over-discharged products at all, yet they charge exceptionally high prices. So from that perspective we are extremely confident with our warranty offering and I will also say I expect 5-7 years our of the RS-30. not 3 years. So we are not being tight with our warranty.

3- Now for the emotional stuff....I think all of us love Cars and Motorsports or we would not have bought Porsches... And being that on this forum a large amount of the member are posing performance questions and wanting better performance our batteries are right in the pocket for that. Our particular Lithium Battery is flat-out most cost effective and biggest bang for your dollar of any weightloss mod by a long shot. You lose about 40 pounds for $700 dollars and get a battery that won't leave you stranded. People are buying little Carbon Fiber Parts for $250 a pop and they save 3 ounces , but look cool. They buy 911R strip kits for $450 dollars and after install cost about $800 dollars...so for less than that you can get a real improvement and performance by losing 40 pounds of weight and also have a car that can stop shorter and handle better. 40 pounds going 100 MPH requires massive force to slow down... so that means your brakes don't have as work as hard and stopping distances can be shorter. So that is real all around performance benefits.... by they way the Porsche Lithium Battery option is $4500 dollars and our battery is more advanced.

4- Last, Batteries are boring, I will give you that... Most of us have been brought up thinking batteries are cheap, they go bad ,and are disposable lame products.... They are unless they save you 40 pounds and will get you out of a dead-battery emergency.

Last edited by Antigravity; 03-13-2018 at 11:57 PM.
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