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982 GT4 Spyder?

 
Old 02-18-2018, 05:09 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by zorgg
I think that Porsche have a kind of 'marketing' problem with the next generation of the Spyder...

In the 718 range, the convertible (the Boxster) is now positioned at a higher price than the coupe (the Cayman). And the technical specs are the same (same engine, same chassis etc.).
This sounds more logical, and saves Porsche the efforts to make the Boxster to appear 'a bit different' / under powered compared to the Cayman, as it was the case before.
But, considering that this approach will remain the same for the next GT4/ Spyder generation (this is confirmed by the spy shots), this would mean that the Spyder will be a sort of 'convertible' GT version of the Boxster, potentially faster than the GT4 - the 981 Spyder is lighter than the 981 GT4 - at least in some circumstances. Would Porsche live with this? I dont know... Maybe the launch of the 991 Speedster will provide some answers, when comparing its specs with the GT3 ones.

Talking about the Speedster, there again Porsche have a severe marketing issue to solve. It's amost certain (but not sure) that this version will get the 4.0 engine of the GT3, for a price of c. 215 k€. We don't know if this engine will be detuned or not – some experts report a power of c. 480 hp.

If this is the case, then how will Porsche manage the launch of a Spyder with a, say, 420 hp NA 6 cyl, at a price of c. 115 k€, a few months after the Speedster ? Such a price would represent a high increase compared to the 981 version, but will still be 100 k€ lower than the Speedster. And, in this precise case, not doubt that the Spyder will be faster than the Speedster in most cases (the Spyder weight/power ratio will be lower).
Putting a 4 cyl turbo of the same power (420 cv) in the Spyder would not really solve the problem, from a performance point of view, but at least Porsche could save the 6 cyl NA ‘argument’ for the Speedster and the GT4.
I don’t know how Porsche are going to solve this, frankly. From an industrial point of view, fitting two different engines on the Spyder and the GT4 would be a non-sense. If I were Porsche, I’d just simply increase massively the price of the 718 GT4 and Spyder (by naming them ‘RS’, for example), e.g. up to the one of a 991 GTS, as performances will be similar. NA versions of the GT4/ Spyder would probably be the last sports models with NA engines that Porsche will produce (with the 991.2 RS and the Speedster), everybody feels that. No doubt they will sell, regardless of the price… And Porsche won't miss an opportunity to make more profits !
If they go for a 'cheap' version of the GT4/ Spyder (expect not much less than 100 k€ !), then the 4 cyl turbo is a logical option. These will be very fast cars in any case, but a bit less ‘noble’ than the 991 models with their 6 cyl turbo, not mentionning the GT3.

Personally, I'm not sure that Porsche even know what they will do eventually. Maybe the future European norms for emissions will condition the final choice. For example, there are press articles in Europe saying that BMW may stop - at least for a moment – the production of the new M5 because they cannot cope with the new emissions regulation to be set by 1st September 2018 onwards…
I agree this is an interesting conundrum. Definitely complicated by reverse of Boxster/Spyder positioning and of course lack of NA engine choice. If I were forced into using the GT3 engine I'd definitely be thinking about RS moniker and huge price hike.
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:05 AM
  #122  
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I don't see this as an issue since the limited run Speedster will be an instant collectible and will sell out completely above sticker immediately - so there is no such thing like "lower performance of the Speedster vs Spyder will hurt sales". And this is something that needs to be kept in mind with all these special edition cars like GT4, Spyder, GT3 and so on. These cars will sell out quickly and people are putting deposits and their names on a list to get hold of one. So the reason to buy such a car is not influenced by "normal" comparisons to other cars or even other Porsches. And Porsche knows that and can act freely with the decision on engines/power tratings.

One Porsche official (was it Achleitner?) already stated that the GT(3) cars might not raise much further in horspower but be more efficient with around the 500 hp they have now - its not a horsepower race like with Mustangs, and Camaros - its a lap time race and that doesn't need ever increasing horsepowers. Look at the AMG GT R - it is short of 110hp compared to a Z06 but on the track performance is just comparable.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:41 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by the_rider View Post
Is there a reason why you think so? For a number of reasons, it would make sense to keep the powertrain same between GT4 and Spyder. In fact, GT4 has more to gain from a turbo mill. Since you are in motorsports, you would know better that a turbo engine helps with lower lap times due to the nature of power delivery? Or, am I getting it wrong? NA could be slower and hence suits the Spyder better as it is street-focused. However, I am positive that the powertrains will not be different between the two.
Just food for thought.
It would be easy and affordable for Porsche to use the Cayman GTS motor in the 718 Spyder. Basically it would be a fancy convertible option of a GTS. makes plenty of power etc. Disappointing yes, but the car would still be a performer compared to a boxster S. It would also make the GT4 a true stand alone product, whereas the Spyder is already a stand alone thanks to its convertible top. (The 981 Spyder never recieved the front suspension of the GT4 last go around which could lead one to believe that maybe they will not bother with GT type items for the next car either such as the engine...)

For motorsports a turbo would make gobs of torque and help with lap times as we have seen with the competiton in GT4. However, less plumbing and less associated heat is welcome in the NA car. Throttle response is also fantastic in NA for racing. I could go either way without knowing too much to say either way, however some top runners in IMSA GT4 say they rather no turbo if given a choice.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:19 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by tcsracing1 View Post
Just food for thought.
It would be easy and affordable for Porsche to use the Cayman GTS motor in the 718 Spyder. Basically it would be a fancy convertible option of a GTS. makes plenty of power etc. Disappointing yes, but the car would still be a performer compared to a boxster S. It would also make the GT4 a true stand alone product, whereas the Spyder is already a stand alone thanks to its convertible top. (The 981 Spyder never recieved the front suspension of the GT4 last go around which could lead one to believe that maybe they will not bother with GT type items for the next car either such as the engine...)
I don't foresee this happening... all spy photos say otherwise. Spyder test cars have had the same diffuser, exhaust layout, brakes, wheels and even tires as the GT4. Makes zero sense just to make it the same as the 718 Boxster GTS with simply roof difference too much overlap between two convertible 982's. The Spyder is more than a roof. I feel many (not all) GT4 owners don't like the idea of a Spyder GT4 simply because many feel that the Cayman GT4 needs to sit above the Spyder performance wise. Yes, the 981 Spyder was not developed by the Motorsport Division... but let me remind everyone, that AP said that there is interest to do so in the future... that it was a matter of resources that limited it to the Cayman for the 981. The GT4 and Spyder was unknown territory for them... I honestly think Porsche was surprise of how much demand there was for it. My gut tells me that Porsche will make the Spyder and Cayman version nearly identical with difference simply the roof and wing... very similar to the 987.2 Spyder and Cayman R. Why wouldn't they want to? For the 981 Porsche did the mistake of launching the GT3RS and GT4 together... then month later the Spyder. This go, I have been informed that the GT3RS and GT4 will be launched separately. GT3RS at Geneva and IMHO the GT4 and Spyder will be launched late Summer / early Fall with Spring 2019 deliveries. Time will tell... all I know is I will be sooooo happy when details are announce no matter the outcome to end all of the all over the board speculation/assumptions (including mine ).
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:19 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by zorgg View Post
I think that Porsche have a kind of 'marketing' problem with the next generation of the Spyder...

In the 718 range, the convertible (the Boxster) is now positioned at a higher price than the coupe (the Cayman). And the technical specs are the same (same engine, same chassis etc.).
This sounds more logical, and saves Porsche the efforts to make the Boxster to appear 'a bit different' / under powered compared to the Cayman, as it was the case before.
But, considering that this approach will remain the same for the next GT4/ Spyder generation (this is confirmed by the spy shots), this would mean that the Spyder will be a sort of 'convertible' GT version of the Boxster, potentially faster than the GT4 - the 981 Spyder is lighter than the 981 GT4 - at least in some circumstances. Would Porsche live with this? I dont know... Maybe the launch of the 991 Speedster will provide some answers, when comparing its specs with the GT3 ones.

Talking about the Speedster, there again Porsche have a severe marketing issue to solve. It's amost certain (but not sure) that this version will get the 4.0 engine of the GT3, for a price of c. 215 k€. We don't know if this engine will be detuned or not – some experts report a power of c. 480 hp.

If this is the case, then how will Porsche manage the launch of a Spyder with a, say, 420 hp NA 6 cyl, at a price of c. 115 k€, a few months after the Speedster ? Such a price would represent a high increase compared to the 981 version, but will still be 100 k€ lower than the Speedster. And, in this precise case, not doubt that the Spyder will be faster than the Speedster in most cases (the Spyder weight/power ratio will be lower).
Putting a 4 cyl turbo of the same power (420 cv) in the Spyder would not really solve the problem, from a performance point of view, but at least Porsche could save the 6 cyl NA ‘argument’ for the Speedster and the GT4.
I don’t know how Porsche are going to solve this, frankly. From an industrial point of view, fitting two different engines on the Spyder and the GT4 would be a non-sense. If I were Porsche, I’d just simply increase massively the price of the 718 GT4 and Spyder (by naming them ‘RS’, for example), e.g. up to the one of a 991 GTS, as performances will be similar. NA versions of the GT4/ Spyder would probably be the last sports models with NA engines that Porsche will produce (with the 991.2 RS and the Speedster), everybody feels that. No doubt they will sell, regardless of the price… And Porsche won't miss an opportunity to make more profits !
If they go for a 'cheap' version of the GT4/ Spyder (expect not much less than 100 k€ !), then the 4 cyl turbo is a logical option. These will be very fast cars in any case, but a bit less ‘noble’ than the 991 models with their 6 cyl turbo, not mentionning the GT3.
The 981 GT4 and 981 Spyder were premium versions of the Cayman and Boxster. Same engines, however The GT4 has the GT3 front suspension which the Spyder did not recieve.
(Porsche felt that the GT4 had to be for the track enthusist whereas the Spyder demographic was for the canyon carver.) This would be how Porsche lives with the two platforms thereby marketing one car more "motorsports" oriented. This is why it wouldnt shock me to see the Cayman GTS motor in the next Spyder, thereby keeping the GT3 suspension and detuned GT3 engine exclusively for the GT4 as a track enthusist car and marketed uniquely as such. But I anticipate the detuned GT3 motor in the next Spyder.

The 991.2 Speedster will be an interesting animal. It would be just as easy to power it with the 991.2 GTS motor and have the fancy top, only make a few as always.
However, it would make sense to have the GT3 engine into it for those looking to park one along side of their 911R. That is the buyer demographic and they already have the engine in the GT3, GT3 touring, GT3R and RS.

If Porsche offers the detuned GT3 motor in the Spyder and the fully tuned GT3 motor in the Speedster then it will be interesting to see performance figures.
In this economy, production numbers of the Speedster will have collectors ****** them all up regardless IMO.

It appears 4cly is out for the GT4 and it will be detuned GT3 motor.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:22 PM
  #126  
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.

It appears 4cly is out for the GT4 and it will be detuned GT3 motor.
Based on what? The 10 articles all referencing the same unsubstantiated rumor?

Nobody knows.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:24 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
Based on what? The 10 articles all referencing the same unsubstantiated rumor?
Nobody knows.
Based on racing customers preparing to replace the outgoing clubsport for 2019.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:28 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by 63A 981510 View Post
I don't foresee this happening... all spy photos say otherwise. Spyder test cars have had the same diffuser, exhaust layout, brakes, wheels and even tires as the GT4. Makes zero sense just to make it the same as the 718 Boxster GTS with simply roof difference too much overlap between two convertible 982's. The Spyder is more than a roof. My gut tells me that Porsche will make the Spyder and Cayman version nearly identical with difference simply the roof and wing...
I 100% agree. It wouldnt make sense to offer the Spyder with the same engine as the Boxster GTS. It would be a dissappointment.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:50 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by tcsracing1
Based on racing customers preparing to replace the outgoing clubsport for 2019.
So they have received confirmation directly from Porsche that the GT4 is going to have the 4.0?
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:58 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by tcsracing1 View Post
I 100% agree. It wouldnt make sense to offer the Spyder with the same engine as the Boxster GTS. It would be a dissappointment.
I expect that the prices for a GT4 and Spyder will be about the same or possibly the Spyder even being priced higher than a GT4. If Porsche has been consistent about anything over the decades, it's the direct correlation between price and HP. So if the 718 GT4 gets a detuned GT3 engine, so will the Spyder. Moreover, if the Spyder is priced higher than the GT4, the Spyder will have a few more HP.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:20 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by fast1 View Post
I expect that the prices for a GT4 and Spyder will be about the same or possibly the Spyder even being priced higher than a GT4. If Porsche has been consistent about anything over the decades, it's the direct correlation between price and HP. So if the 718 GT4 gets a detuned GT3 engine, so will the Spyder. Moreover, if the Spyder is priced higher than the GT4, the Spyder will have a few more HP.
The boxster is priced higher then Cayman.
The Spyder might very well also be priced higher then GT4 given the cost of the parts for the top.
HP will be the same. They wouldnt be able to increase it for either car.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:22 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
So they have received confirmation directly from Porsche that the GT4 is going to have the 4.0?
Everything is top secret for now.
I do not anticipate racing a turbocharged Porsche in GT4 next season nor do other motorsport customers.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:43 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by tcsracing1
Everything is top secret for now.
I do not anticipate racing a turbocharged Porsche in GT4 next season nor do other motorsport customers.
So again, it's speculation, assumption and a little bit of wishing and hoping. I'm hoping for the same thing, but until there's actual confirmation from Porsche, every guess is just a guess.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:09 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
So again, it's speculation, assumption and a little bit of wishing and hoping. I'm hoping for the same thing, but until there's actual confirmation from Porsche, every guess is just a guess.
it would be an educated guess
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:03 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by tcsracing1 View Post
The boxster is priced higher then Cayman.
The Spyder might very well also be priced higher then GT4 given the cost of the parts for the top.
HP will be the same. They wouldnt be able to increase it for either car.
I don't disagree, but let'snot forget if the Spyder gets a GT3 engine it won't be an issue of increasing HP; it will be how detuned the GT3 engine will be in both cars. Of course eventually the tuners will break the code, and an ECU tune will provide a nice HP bump. The guys at TPC offer a 30 HP increase on a 981 with their ECU tune.
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