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911 owners, did you also get a 981/718 later on?

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Old 01-08-2018, 05:54 PM
  #31
fast1
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Originally Posted by MidEngineRules View Post
I agree if you add "older" before 911, as in air cooled. 911s these days are so advanced and automated (electronic and mechanical driving aids) that the driving experience is becoming highly muted. If going fast I want to feel like I'm going fast. The non-GT 991s are really isolating these days. Being the most evolved car in history is cool. But that evolution has near completely taken it away from the visceral experience it once commanded. There's a guy in my neighborhood who has a GT4 and a early 70s orange Targa (with duck tail) in beautiful condition. Raw, visceral, nice! The sound that car makes is amazing. I'm sure it's a blast to drive, even as slow as it is compared to modern cars.
I know exactly what you mean. I use to do some SCCA racing back in the early 1970s. Cars back then had no driving aids, not even ABS. As a matter of fact one of the first skill sets that I learned at the Bondurant Racing school was how to stop quickly without locking up the brakes. So almost everyone started with 100 HP cars and slowly moved up to more powerful cars as our skills increased. Of course to be fair the cars back then had curb weights under 2K lbs. So even a 150 HP car had decent acceleration.

Fast forward to 2017, I've seen guys at DEs with 500HP cars, and they have virtually no experience. The only reason that they are able to keep their cars on the track is through the intervention of modern technology. And when I talk to some of these guys, the only thing they focus on is trying to extract more HP from their cars. I try to diplomatically suggest that it may be useful to attend a performance driving school, but they believe that their skills are adequate and that a driving school would be a waste of money.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
I have to disagree with this...
Guilty of generalizing as charged! None of the proceeding is intended to disagree, and I appreciate your insight. Personally I think it's a wee bit too easy to fully credit Japanese involvement with turning the company completely around. For certain Japanese expertise in line production completely changed their focus. Nonetheless changing the production line was easy compared to getting Germans to adopt to it. At that time, Germans considered themselves highly skilled craftsman and weren't likely to adopt well to being timed at tasks, or told how to do their jobs differently. I imagine it was quite a significant undertaking with lots of shouting to get the workforce to work faster, more cohesively and to make less mistakes. In addition to Japanese influences Porsche did many things to turn the company around on its own like releasing a third of its management structure and reassigning the other two-thirds to different jobs to keep them from rejecting change in their areas of expertise. Super smart. Porsche incorporated the ability for workers to make suggestions--very Deming-like--and engineered their own unique way of delivering parts to where and when needed on the line, after adopting just in time techniques. You can also factor in fear of losing your job as Porsche was ripe to be purchased by other German car makers if they didn't turn things around, including BMW, so they were highly motivated to succeed. It's really an interesting story I believe. Something a typical consumer of the day would have been oblivious to. Eventually with the processes and workforce transformed, Porsche was able to cut production times significantly and cut "mistakes per car" in half, all of which enabled Porsche to slim down the workforce thereby greatly cutting operational expenses. Labor costs more than mistakes. And as you mentioned they worked on supplier costs and efficiencies. In the end I mostly believe Germans are going to engineer their own success even if they go to outsiders for assistance. Also interesting that during this time of transformation sales were plummeting due to the ongoing recession. Porsche went from 50,000 sales annually in the 80s to 14,000 by 1993. Only 3,000 Porsches were sold in the US in 1993. Sure the recession, but the public must have been bored with Porsche's offerings too and perhaps more interested in Japanese sports cars of the day like the much more affordable RX-7 and 300ZX, and seemingly exotic Acura NSX. Then along came the Boxster for which Porsche had thousands of orders before production even began. Today obviously Porsche is a very strong company, but like the Boxster that gave them back the demand they lacked 25 years ago to significantly enable the economic recovery, the non-sports car segment is doing the heavy lifting today, so us who buy their sports cars have something incredible to enjoy. Thank goodness Porsche didn't adopt any Japanese design philosophy.

Break, Break

While many here were owning Porsches in the early 80s and 90s, I was only dreaming of that. Sat in quite a few in showrooms back then as a college student. For sure the 911s seemed extremely high quality to me and I'm sure they were especially compared to many other makes. Like a lot of people, it's so easy to fall into the trap of newer is better. But older will always be cooler, more interesting/artful, more mechanical, more involving, and slower too which isn't the end of the world. I'm now almost 56 and when I sold my Cayman R and '11 Spyder to buy my '16 Spyder I decided it's probably my last new Porsche and maybe the sports car I take to my grave, unless a super nice air cooled Porsche comes along that I think will be even more rewarding to own and drive. As I've said before, it took the '16 Spyder for me to part ways with my '11 Spyder and Cayman R. I'm still am a huge 987 fan for many reasons, and not just the special versions. I'm missing some of that modern simplicity.




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Old 01-09-2018, 10:09 PM
  #33
Mark Dreyer
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I’ve rarely been without a Porsche since falling in love with an early 70’s 911back in the 80’s during my college years. Since then I’ve owned a number of different Porsche’s. Until about 8 years ago, all those cars had been some 911 variant, including a couple 996 TT’s and a 996 GT3. I finally tried a Boxster a few years ago, and fell in love with everything about the car. That car has since been converted to dedicated track duty. The Spyder is my latest dream Porsche, continuing my love of the mid engine chassis.. I hope,to never get rid of it. I am currently having a PPI done on a 997 base Carrera with 100k miles. I plan to use it to share DD duties with the Cayenne. I had previously owned a base 996, and loved how light and tossable it was. I’m hoping to capture some of that same fun in the 997, while not worrying so much about it being damaged in this horrible Orlando traffic. With the Spyder there is always some level of worry driving it down here which slightly tempers the amazing driving experience.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:23 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MidEngineRules View Post
Guilty of generalizing as charged! None of the proceeding is intended to disagree, and I appreciate your insight. Personally I think it's a wee bit too easy to fully credit Japanese involvement with turning the company completely around. For certain Japanese expertise in line production completely changed their focus. Nonetheless changing the production line was easy compared to getting Germans to adopt to it. At that time, Germans considered themselves highly skilled craftsman and weren't likely to adopt well to being timed at tasks, or told how to do their jobs differently. I imagine it was quite a significant undertaking with lots of shouting to get the workforce to work faster, more cohesively and to make less mistakes. In addition to Japanese influences Porsche did many things to turn the company around on its own like releasing a third of its management structure and reassigning the other two-thirds to different jobs to keep them from rejecting change in their areas of expertise. Super smart. Porsche incorporated the ability for workers to make suggestions--very Deming-like--and engineered their own unique way of delivering parts to where and when needed on the line, after adopting just in time techniques. You can also factor in fear of losing your job as Porsche was ripe to be purchased by other German car makers if they didn't turn things around, including BMW, so they were highly motivated to succeed. It's really an interesting story I believe. Something a typical consumer of the day would have been oblivious to. Eventually with the processes and workforce transformed, Porsche was able to cut production times significantly and cut "mistakes per car" in half, all of which enabled Porsche to slim down the workforce thereby greatly cutting operational expenses. Labor costs more than mistakes. And as you mentioned they worked on supplier costs and efficiencies. In the end I mostly believe Germans are going to engineer their own success even if they go to outsiders for assistance. Also interesting that during this time of transformation sales were plummeting due to the ongoing recession. Porsche went from 50,000 sales annually in the 80s to 14,000 by 1993. Only 3,000 Porsches were sold in the US in 1993. Sure the recession, but the public must have been bored with Porsche's offerings too and perhaps more interested in Japanese sports cars of the day like the much more affordable RX-7 and 300ZX, and seemingly exotic Acura NSX. Then along came the Boxster for which Porsche had thousands of orders before production even began. Today obviously Porsche is a very strong company, but like the Boxster that gave them back the demand they lacked 25 years ago to significantly enable the economic recovery, the non-sports car segment is doing the heavy lifting today, so us who buy their sports cars have something incredible to enjoy. Thank goodness Porsche didn't adopt any Japanese design philosophy.

Break, Break

While many here were owning Porsches in the early 80s and 90s, I was only dreaming of that. Sat in quite a few in showrooms back then as a college student. For sure the 911s seemed extremely high quality to me and I'm sure they were especially compared to many other makes. Like a lot of people, it's so easy to fall into the trap of newer is better. But older will always be cooler, more interesting/artful, more mechanical, more involving, and slower too which isn't the end of the world. I'm now almost 56 and when I sold my Cayman R and '11 Spyder to buy my '16 Spyder I decided it's probably my last new Porsche and maybe the sports car I take to my grave, unless a super nice air cooled Porsche comes along that I think will be even more rewarding to own and drive. As I've said before, it took the '16 Spyder for me to part ways with my '11 Spyder and Cayman R. I'm still am a huge 987 fan for many reasons, and not just the special versions. I'm missing some of that modern simplicity.
I can live with this

No doubt Porsche could not survive if they continued to build cars the way they had been all those years and no doubt the cost was outrageous for the 90's. When You consider a C2/C4 cost $70k +/- and a turbo over $100k back then that was huge money and raising the prices clearly was not an option. The majority of the 93 MY Porsche's sold were 968's so clearly the price point was a factor for sales in general.

A '16 spyder is a nice ride and no doubt we are back to the point where pricing is getting a bit steep irrespective of performance. Where does it end I guess when electric cars take over we will be happy to own any of these cars. It will be interesting to see what is written about todays turbo cars in 10 or 20 years time.

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Old 01-11-2018, 12:24 PM
  #35
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I started with a 964, went to a 993 then 996, 997 and 991. The 991 was in the shop for a week and I got a 981 S loaner. Liked it so much that I sold the 991 and bought a 981 and never looked back.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:00 PM
  #36
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I'd be curious to know how many folks used the rear seat in their 911's to haul people. We used to plop the kids into the back seat of my 944 when they were younger. Likewise, an occasional adult passenger would tough it out back there.

Others?

Dave

'05 987S
'92 968 SP3
'88 944 NA (gone)
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:09 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
The introduction of "just in time" practices...

What i would agree with is that the new approach to building these cars kept suppliers ... providing parts...
Maybe I was just naive or simply uninformed. And maybe most major "manufacturers" are like this nowadays.

BUT. I was shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when we did the Zuffenhausen factory tour last summer and found out that Porsche is not really a "manufacturer" any more. At least, not what most people would call a manufacturer. I may have missed a few things here or there, but as I recall, about the only thing they really "make" is the interior (the surfaces of the interior, not the structure of the interior). What they really are is a design/engineering company that assembles parts made elsewhere.

Hey, I love my 987.1, and I loved the 718BS I rented while we were there, but it was a bit of a let down.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:19 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by softright View Post
Coming from a dyed in the wool 911 guy, 981 platform = new 911 in my book. The 991 cars are big cars these days. Great cars but big. I have both 991 and 981. I LOVE the 981 Caymans, especially on track. Very approachable car. This coming from a guy that club raced a 1987 air cooled car for 14 years (a less approachable car).
Our car experiences and 981 views are identical. I owned several 911s over the decades, the last being a 997S, and was ready to buy a 991S until I test drove a 981S. I enjoyed the ride in the 981 over the 991 and saved over $30K. I'm just happy there was a 981S on the dealer'slot for me to test drive.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by fast1 View Post
Our car experiences and 981 views are identical. I owned several 911s over the decades, the last being a 997S, and was ready to buy a 991S until I test drove a 981S. I enjoyed the ride in the 981 over the 991 and saved over $30K. I'm just happy there was a 981S on the dealer'slot for me to test drive.
I could have had a 991S for what I recently paid for my Spyder. I just felt the 981 has such a more exotic look to it. The 991 looks too clean and institutional to me.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:41 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by SpyderSenseOC View Post
I could have had a 991S for what I recently paid for my Spyder. I just felt the 981 has such a more exotic look to it. The 991 looks too clean and institutional to me.
The thing about the 911 is if you don't opt for the latest technology Porsche has infused to get the most out of the rear engine layout then what's the point? PDCC, all wheel steering, etc. I also wouldn't spend well over 6 digits and not get full leather and many other goodies which make it far more refined. It's not near as nice or capable in stripped form. Hard to believe a $100k Spyder was such a bargain!
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:36 PM
  #41
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Enjoying this thread. As I've said before, I'm jealous of so many here that have had such a rich and extensive Porsche ownership experience. I love hearing your comparisons and contrasts between the different models over the years. My only two have been Boxsters so the 911 is a dish I have yet to sample, other than very brief encounters with cars belonging to friends. Can't say I have ever strongly aspired to 911 ownership (new GT3 excepted) and given my high level of satisfaction with both Boxsters, I don't see a 911 in my future any time soon. I'll probably go to my grave without ever owning one. As a sports car enthusiast and Porsche fan, the thought of never experiencing one of the most iconic cars of all time, not to mention Porsche's halo car, should be troubling to me, but for whatever reason it just isn't. I've kept thinking over the years that maybe I'll have a change of heart at some point, but so far it hasn't happened. I think the performance and handling of the Boxster has a lot to do with that. But never say never, I suppose.

Wondering if any others either haven't been bitten by the 911 bug or just have a muted desire, at best, to own one someday.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:10 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Suicide Jockey View Post
Enjoying this thread. As I've said before, I'm jealous of so many here that have had such a rich and extensive Porsche ownership experience. I love hearing your comparisons and contrasts between the different models over the years. My only two have been Boxsters so the 911 is a dish I have yet to sample, other than very brief encounters with cars belonging to friends. Can't say I have ever strongly aspired to 911 ownership (new GT3 excepted) and given my high level of satisfaction with both Boxsters, I don't see a 911 in my future any time soon. I'll probably go to my grave without ever owning one. As a sports car enthusiast and Porsche fan, the thought of never experiencing one of the most iconic cars of all time, not to mention Porsche's halo car, should be troubling to me, but for whatever reason it just isn't. I've kept thinking over the years that maybe I'll have a change of heart at some point, but so far it hasn't happened. I think the performance and handling of the Boxster has a lot to do with that. But never say never, I suppose.

Wondering if any others either haven't been bitten by the 911 bug or just have a muted desire, at best, to own one someday.
DITTO
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:38 AM
  #43
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My ownership sequence went: A 997 2009 911S coupe, and then a 2011 Boxster Spyder two months later (a complete impulse purchase). Then traded the 09 911S for a 2014 GT3 in February 2015 which then got traded in on a 2014 911S cabriolet in April of 2017. I still have the Spyder. It's truly a special car IMO as it's the most fun car to drive that I have ever owned although not as practical as the 911S (love the automatic top and extra storage area behind the seats). Garage space permitting I will keep both of them as they as different as a pair of walking tennis shoes vs running shoes.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:49 AM
  #44
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I haven’t yet but I’m waiting patiently for the next Spyder and plan to relegate my 14 C4S to DD duty and have the Spyder as the fair weather car.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Suicide Jockey View Post
Enjoying this thread. As I've said before, I'm jealous of so many here that have had such a rich and extensive Porsche ownership experience. I love hearing your comparisons and contrasts between the different models over the years. My only two have been Boxsters so the 911 is a dish I have yet to sample, other than very brief encounters with cars belonging to friends. Can't say I have ever strongly aspired to 911 ownership (new GT3 excepted) and given my high level of satisfaction with both Boxsters, I don't see a 911 in my future any time soon. I'll probably go to my grave without ever owning one. As a sports car enthusiast and Porsche fan, the thought of never experiencing one of the most iconic cars of all time, not to mention Porsche's halo car, should be troubling to me, but for whatever reason it just isn't. I've kept thinking over the years that maybe I'll have a change of heart at some point, but so far it hasn't happened. I think the performance and handling of the Boxster has a lot to do with that. But never say never, I suppose.

Wondering if any others either haven't been bitten by the 911 bug or just have a muted desire, at best, to own one someday.
I feel exactly the same too. Couldn’t believe what great value my first second hand 987.1 was and now have what is my perfect weekend / touring car.I find the 911 cabrio’s a bit awkward and the newer cars a bit big, although I am starting to get drawn to the classic 60’s / 70’s air cooled cars.
But I must say that the new GT3 touring as DD just seems the perfect companion for my Spyder !
Given the choice though it’s Spyder over 911 at the moment.
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