cobalt

thanks that helps.

So 1992 cup cars is way too many.

nathanUK '81 930 G50

Anthony, it is 1,992 964RS cars.

bweSteve

Ok, so finding a old thread once,... seems to be easy,... but then feeling like I used the same search criteria again all over,... and whoaLa,... tough to find it again!

Anyway,... this is my placeholder here,... until I can go back & dig in books to pull some numbers out.

=Steve

Add'l Comment: Thanks to Anthony BELOW, for pulling the data out quickly. I'm at a off-site work location & no where near my books, AND do not have the wealth of background knowledge. THANKS COBALT for doing this writeup!!....
..... these numbers are just so amazing to me, every time I look at them. rarity indeed.

cobalt

A lot of info has been learned since 2007. Based on Gabriel and Franz book which has proven to be the most accurate reference for actual numbers to date.

AFAIK the most accurate numbers we have for US spec turbos US (NA) and Canadian (C) are:

1991.........NA.........580
1991.........C...........33
1992.........NA.........233*
1992S2.....NA.........20*
1992.........C...........15
1994........NA..........335 stock
1994........NA..........15 package turbo S
1994........NA..........39 Flachbau turbo S
1994........C............13 stock
1994........C.............2 X88 engine upgrade
1994........C.............2 package turbo S

This should cover all US spec 964 turbos imported to both the US and Canada. We do know some of these cars were converted to race cars upon delivery but have no information on how many.

I did just notice an error in their book however they have the headlights listed on page 211 as 928 style for the flachbau's as we all know they are actually from the 968.

* There is no mention of the 20 US turbo S2 cars in their book. We can speculate whether the 20 cars shipped to the US in stock form and sent to ANDIAL for conversion to S2 configuration were counted in these numbers.

No doubt that all 1991 and 1992 cars are grouped together since there were no changes for the MY's. It still leaves very little and far more 1991/1992 turbos were tracked over the years than the 3.6's although numerous examples were lost at the track as well.

One of the problems made by Adrian and others was that they were counting Vin numbers 001 through 060 as actual cars imported. We later learned that all US vin numbers for these years started at 061 and not 001. So 60 more cars for each year each specific vin were counted but never existed. It is believed these cars were test mules destroyed to meet DOT regulations. We can all guess whether this is true and if Porsche actually destroyed that many of each vin for each MY

So if you add all the 3.3 and 3.6's together package and Turbo S etc that equals 1297 turbos in total US spec for all NA and C cars imported by those numbers alone that makes the 964 turbo a very rare car and even more so when you break it down to specific variations. The turbo S package car and X88 versions should be very high on the list of the rarest Porsche's imported in US spec ever.

bweSteve

Thanks again Anthony.

Don't mean to totally roll this thread off it's rails,... but how is it that the 930 (in all it's quantities built & sold),... have really out performed the valuation increases in this past bubble over the past 4 yrs or so. I don't understand that.

=Steve

cobalt

The 930 is a different market. Don't forget most people just getting into this market only know the basics. 930 is the iconic turbo and well known. The 964 turbo was short lived and overshadowed by the 993TT. I myself did not know about the 3.6T until 1995 until after I saw my first one at the PCA zone 1 concours. I had no idea the model came and went so quickly. Up until 2007 or so most people I spoke to at PCA events didn't know the 964 turbo never mind the 3.6T was ever produced or had they ever seen one in person.

The 930 market went wild just as the 3.6T market did. Things have calmed down a bit since but the right cars still fetch good money. Most 930's I see sell are in the $60-80k range. The ones that bring better money are the 78-79 3.3's or the earlier 3.0's which are seeing as much as $150k- $200's depending on many factors then you have the G50 cars all of which are rare and essentially the same as the 91-92 turbos with the older tub which weighed less. The first and last of anything usually do well in the markets.

Although total 930's in the US are many not many were made per year and only specific variations are fetching the big money like the factory slope nose, G50 and earlier cars. The grey market cars are still in that middle ground and there are some that prefer the looks and weight aspect of the 930 over the 964 which did not appeal to some.

Time will show all of these cars will soon have their place and since they aren't making any more you have only so many to choose from which becomes the issue of supply and demand.

I don't see the markets being that much different. A well restored 930 will fetch about the same as a well preserved 964 turbo 3.3L and the special 930's are about the same as a well preserved 3.6T. As with all these cars it is all about the individual car itself.

It is all in the numbers. We may find that the 930 targas being so few will trump the coupes but the real money is in the turbo S cars.

Metal Guru

I thought I read somewhere that there were 10,000 930's delivered worldwide.

cobalt

There were over 16,000 built between 78 and 89 world wide not to mention the turbo S and other variants that are exceedingly rare. That averages less than 1500 units per year for the world.

Only specific years or variations seem to bring the big money in the US. 86 and 87 seem to have the most imported to the US with around >1000 u/y but the targas and cabs are small quantities and no doubt will see the big $$ some of the other S type variants are now seeing due to low production numbers.

Best i can gather there were 1155 78 and 79 turbos made to US spec and an additional 534 made to California DOT spec. A total WW production for those years seems to be 2,616. Sales dropped dramatically from 80 through 85 when Porsche stopped importing cars to the US with a total of 5,247 units sold worldwide with none imported to the US. Once the US got back into the market in 86 production totals jumped to 2490 for the coupe. In 87 they introduced the targa and cab versions which are very rare, yet only a small % of US spec models imported met CA EPA requirements. 2,281 were built worldwide in 1987 another 1,828 for 88 and finally 1902 for all of 89.

I have no doubt if the 964 turbo had a longer run it would read very much like the 930. 2,840 made world wide for 1991, 1,023 built for 1992 so a total of 3,863 not including the turbo S variants which were all delivered in 1993. the 3.6 was delivered to the ROW in 1993 with 598 units and 673 for the entire world for 1994 for a total of 1,271 not including the turbo S cars.

If you jump over to the 993 TT we see a large increase with 5,012 made for 1996 not including GT2's and 2,018 in 1997 and 579 for 1998 or a total of 7,609

So if you look at just the world production of air cooled turbo charged Porsche's without adding all the ultra rare specialty turbo S, GT2 and other variants into the picture this is what you basically get +/- how you want to add them up or include.

3.0 930.........2,967 *
3.3 930.........16,364 *
3.3 964.........3,863 *
3.6 964.........1,271 *
3.6 993.........7,609 *

* These are a rough compilation of the number provided by Gabriel and Franz which I am not doing justice to and are grouping all RHD, LHD and some special X33 or performance modified cars. There is an entire list of specialty cars that can be added or broken out and those no doubt are highly coveted to a collector due to such low production numbers. How a US spec CA emission version of a 930 carries weight over a non CA emission car I guess depends on the buyer.

We can only speculate how many are still on the road or salvageable after all these years. Although as with all of these cars it is becoming a case by case evaluation and one car can command a premium over another for many reasons. I have seen some very nice and unique 930's fetch $150k and some more but most i find need TLC and can bring as low as $50k and usually hover in the $60-90 range. The 964 3.3's seem to be holding solid and the 964 3.6's seem to be dropping a bit from their high. The 993TT seems to be about the same as it was. I have a friend who is in the process of selling a nice 25k mile 993TT and is hoping to get $150k for it so nice low mileage clean examples of many of these cars are seeing between $120k to upwards of $250k and then there are a lot of numbers above and below for the exceptional to the need of TLC.

bweSteve

Those are some crazy high build quantity numbers for 930's, when we compare against the 964 Turbo's (either in total worldwide,... or even when we're narrowing down to just the US & Canada).

So it sorta proves my point, that it was so odd to me (over the past 4 yrs or so) that there was such a feeding frenzy on the 930's, and it drove prices crazy high, AND the insurance companies sorta followed suit by creating valuations showing that the 930's were worth more than 964 Turbo's (of course we all know those valuations were mistakenly generalized & they normalized all the cars into such simplified groups of quality levels 1,2,3,4). But be-that-as-it-may, it just didn't sit right with me.

But of course I just kept telling myself that my wife & I were an anomaly given that we always preferred the smooth bumper look. And that the older accordion / rubber bumper style had not a lot to do with preferential choices. Supply & demand. Whatever. ... "to each his own" I'd say.

So in the end I just wanted to say Thank You to you Cobalt, for taking the time to write this up. It's astonishing how few of our 964 Turbo's actually go up for sale by private party in any given year. People just hang on to these things.

.... so my problem now seems to be, how badly I want to add yet another 911 to my stable. Now that the kids are gone & it's just the two of us, AND we're both still working,... I really would love to get a track car (probably not dedicated track beast, only because I still love driving on the street),... so more like a GT3. I'm kinda hoping that in the next year or two, the new 2018 MT GT3 will help push the prices of the manual trans 997.1 & 997.2 GT3's downward. Would be nice to get into a GT3 for say $70k ish.

anyway,.... dreamin' of track days. I envy you guys who get out there in DE's.
=Steve

cobalt

The feeding frenzy didn't help no doubt. A lot of people overpaid for junk thinking the market was never going to stop climbing. I guess nobody learned from the housing markets. LOL

DE is a great experience and IMO everyone should have to learn to drive on the track. It is far safer than driving on the streets.

A GT3 is a great car but no reason to hold out and wait for them to come down in price there are a ton of great cars you can start with and learn on at a far more reasonable cost. Cayman's can be had in the mid $20k's and are very capable. You can always build up to whatever later. I started Cindy off with a 944S2 and then the C2 but I had her drive on street tires and stock brakes for an entire season before unleashing her. Now she drives a nearly 500hp monster with full race everything. If only I can find the time to get out more often.

Bklyn964Turbo

Nicely done Anthony...

I was thinking about selling my car for something more modern (GT3 or Turbo S) this year but after seeing these numbers and what feels like a softer market for the 964 Turbos versus maybe two Summers back..another wave is coming when folks realize how rare any year (91,92,94) are...until then I am going to keep it dry and tight and wait.

tcsracing1

I have USA car # 193
built 02/08/1991

heliolps2

Nice write up Anthony

As many know that I own a 92, giving that the engine and Trans aren't matching, but it seems to me that the 92 is the lowest production model of the group, even though yes it's a 3.3 same as the 91, but still in it own right a very low production. I don't think its fair to group the 91 and the 92 together.

Doe's anyone know any info on the 93 turbo's ? what was the spec's on those cars ? engine and so on?

Does anyone have a clue on how many of these 91,92 and 94 turbo cars where totaled ? Save say alot, which makes our cars even more valuable

maverick

91 & 92 were identical which is likely why they are typicaly grouped together. The 93 was the last year and was the 3.6 and released late so it was released in US as a 94, so no US 93 turbos as such.
At least that's the way I have always understood it.

Metal Guru

+1
I have a '92 wiring harness on my '91 so I assume the factory made rolling changes to the model without actually implementing strictly on model years (all automakers do the same to fix issues and make improvements). The differences are relatively minor.

I've heard that some '91's were delivered with R-134a too, as the R-12 stock was depleted.