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New ARB brackets for the White car. USD 20 for the pair. They took all of thirty minutes to fit. Now the car could be moved on to the lift it was time to find the source of the engine oil leak. It looks like it's coming from behind the pulley.
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I have had a frustrating time tracking down the engine leak on the White car. Long story short it's leaking in two places: the case area around the nose bearing and also the intermediate shaft cover below it. In hindsight this area has leaked since the full OPC rebuild.
The intermediate shaft cover has been hit by a ball peen hammer in the past so I have ordered a new cover and o ring. That's the easy part. The big problem is the nose bearing area as this is sealed by an o-ring inside the case. There are solutions to seal this area from the outside, the Tom Amon collar was one of them, and it didn't work. Rather than try a similar solution I'm going to reseal the motor and stop the oil leaking out. Yes, I'm going to spend 40 odd hours in labour to pull the engine apart, split the case, replace a cheap o-ring and put it all back together. This type of work was on my bucket list but I wanted to do the Silver car, not repeat work I paid an OPC good money to do. |
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One positive of the rebuild is I get to buy more tools. Enough is never enough!
Here's just a few of them. |
If you are looking for inspiration on 964 engine work check this out. http://perelet.com/cars/porsche/leaks_thread/1.html
Oleg is even fitting his own valve guides (page 4), a task OPCs farm out. |
That great thread is what started it all for me, two summers ago...
So, this will be a open, basically, disassemble short block and all components inside, clean case halves, reassemble, etc., correct? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14002536)
You gonna give it a go? What will be cleaning approach to case? Everything out, oil pump, etc.. ?
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The bulk of my engine rebuild/reseal tools have just arrived. I'm a pig in muck.
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From the twilight zone. Past experience with an engine drop told me to get as much oil out of the system as possible before dropping it, otherwise it would slowly leak out of capped pipes etc.
I did this for a couple of days. When looking through the oil from the tank I found paper!!!!! Now, a mechanic has told me that the oil tank is very difficult to fully flush out so this paper could be the same as found in 2013 (see the link to lessons learned on page one of this thread) I.e. don't panic. However, this is the weird part. The paper I assumed got into the system was a kitchen paper towel, BUT this paper has writing on it. Looking back there is a real possibility this car had paper in the system when I bought it. This is too weird to make up, especially as the text looks like it has religious overtones. Maybe I should call the car Damien? |
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The paper mentioned above.
Did the previous owner sabotage the car? I don't know but I'm very happy that I have the motivation to sort the engine out myself once and for all. |
It's a fortune cookie ... Egads! Suspect PO or shop tried to do a "temp plug" and used wrong material ...
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14034952)
It's a fortune cookie ... Egads! Suspect PO or shop tried to do a "temp plug" and used wrong material ...
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I am too lazy to search, which car is going under the knife?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14035033)
I am too lazy to search, which car is going under the knife?
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Is it still an engine drop when you lift the car off the engine? It's semantics, because all that matters is the engine and transmission are out and I didn't break anything. I learned the hard way last time that it's easier to avoid leaks/spills than clean up the mess. This time I siphoned the power steering reservoir and drained the two pipes slowly into the cut-off bottom of a plastic bottle. Barely a drop leaked. It helps to measure the amount taken out for when it's time to refill. 450ml is the total.
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As my car is RHD C4, I had to remove the clutch pipe that loops under the transmission, otherwise the transmission could hit it on the drop. I cut up an old pipe then sealed and folded the end. It worked as a blanking plug. Btw the plug couldn't have been in a worse place, the moment I loosened the connector I had fluid running down my arm.
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With the pipe sorted I decided to make the drop very safe by removing the starter motor when the engine was half way dropped. This meant I didn't have to worry about it fouling the driveshaft on that side.
BTW I fully recommend a lift. I competed this drop with no help and no issues and it was so much easier than with the jack stands etc. Next up is transmission off and the engine on to the yoke. |
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With the White car out of action I've been driving the Silver car. I noticed that the HVAC wasn't working unless on the blue position. A classic sign the rear blower wasn't working. Sure enough the fuse had blown (30A in rear fuse box)
Rather than hope it would just go away and risk blowing more fuses I installed my spare fan ex the White car. Full fan function is back. I had a look at the old fan. Nothing obvious but I'll replace it in due course so I don't end up with a big deferred maintenance list on my cars. |
Nice protection of the new paint job. Everything looks so clean already. Going to make "bag and tag" less of a mess... Btw, I saw there was a post to this thread at 2:30am pst, I was viewing at 10:00am PST and could not see post. I am just getting back to RL viewing at 7:00pm PST and obviously see it. I see you had carrier support welded, did you paint or powder coat all of carrier. I have on order and may prime/paint the bare metal at minimum before taking to have stitch welds and then decide to paint or powder coat :(
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14042878)
Nice protection of the new paint job. Everything looks so clean already. Going to make "bag and tag" less of a mess... Btw, I saw there was a post to this thread at 2:30am pst, I was viewing at 10:00am PST and could not see post. I am just getting back to RL viewing at 7:00pm PST and obviously see it. I see you had carrier support welded, did you paint or powder coat all of carrier. I have on order and may prime/paint the bare metal at minimum before taking to have stitch welds and then decide to paint or powder coat :(
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I used the Pelican parts lift bar with a generic engine crane to get the engine on the yoke. I chose a three point lift using the engine carrier and the prefitted yoke as lift points. It took a few goes to get the engine level and lifted enough to get it in the stand. I did the engine drop, transmission separation and fitting to the yoke with no help. Lastly I cleaned up my garage as I don't want a mess to walk around in while I focus on the engine.
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Engine crane
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Lastly for day one I removed the engine carrier, intake assembly and fan/alternator.
Intake valves and power steering pump belt look fine. |
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Day 2. Just 90 minutes after work. Everything has been removed off the top of the engine. Lots of bolts.
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https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7142d345e5.jpg
Hi John - Can you tell me where you sourced that bodywork protection. Its exactly what I've been looking for :) |
Originally Posted by robt964
(Post 14048485)
Hi John - Can you tell me where you sourced that bodywork protection. Its exactly what I've been looking for :)
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Just a light touch in the garage tonight. Power steering pump was removed, so were the alternator fan straps. I also took off the valve covers on the left hand cylinders (1, 2 & 3). Spark plugs look good. Cams and tappets look good from what I can see. Head studs are all intact :)
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great read. thanks for sharing.
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Your updates are always relevant to my interests, John. :) I've been reading up on doing an engine drop on mine (for valve adjustment and oil leak elimination), and your posts are excellent for a do-it-yourselfer.
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Originally Posted by Deserion
(Post 14048562)
Your updates are always relevant to my interests, John. :) I've been reading up on doing an engine drop on mine (for valve adjustment and oil leak elimination), and your posts are excellent for a do-it-yourselfer.
BTW: Engine out is the way to go for a first timer. Everything is so easy to get to and fix. Obviously a mechanic couldn't justify the time expense of dropping the engine, so has to do it the harder way, but my time is free so I do it the way I want. |
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I turned the engine over tonight. The target was the heat exchanger bolts. PB blaster and a Mapp torch managed to shift seven of the eight bolts. The last bolt needs a different tool which should arrive soon, as should the long Allen key required to loosen the nuts that are accessed through the holes in the heat exchanger.
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This Facom hex tool made short work of the Allen key nuts accessed through the heat exchanger holes. The last nut, up by the flywheel end needed a box wrench. All sorted. I took a few studs out but they are easy to replace. The heat exchanger was relatively easy to remove. Quite heavy.
Next up is the fun bit where I get the heads off. |
How did you get the HE studs out exactly? Do new studs get any loctite, such as, loctite Blue?
You plan to keep cam tower and heads together and move aside? No work on those pieces, correct? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14055054)
How did you get the HE studs out exactly? Do new studs get any loctite, such as, loctite Blue? You plan to keep cam tower and heads together and move aside? No work on those pieces, correct?
Some of the nuts had a stronger hold than the stud/engine bond and the whole stud came out. I will buy new ones for those and 12 all new nuts. I won't use loctite as the heat would likely make it ineffective and I can't find evidence they would back out. Of all the jobs to date these nuts have given me the most angst. Making them even harder to get out seems counterproductive. As for the nuts, they are different to others on the engine. They seem harder and give a 'crack' when they loosen. Once cracked they are east to get off. Yes, I intend to keep the cam tower and heads as intact as possible. I'm after the nose bearing area and will only do what's required to sort that. |
John I love how the title of this thread is "light refurb"
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Originally Posted by Pel
(Post 14055595)
John I love how the title of this thread is "light refurb"
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Nice work John !!
I wish I had the space in my garage to pull an engine and put on the stand to work on it like that !! Too many kids bicycles, etc. for now. That time will come... Did you use a Mapp/Oxygen torch, or just a Mapp gas torch? I tried just the Mapp gas and it wouldn't get very hot. When I used a little Mapp/Oxygen torch, that made a huge difference, as it gets MUCH hotter. I would put the torch to the HE fasteners, focus it to get things cherry red, and then, they would come right loose. Fortunately I only had four of them that needed so much persuasion with the "hot wrench". The other eight came loose with just a liberal soaking in PB Blaster and Kroil. Also, I had a lot of different wrenches, including the one you noted, but seems like a flex socket worked the best, for me... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...aa6b73b212.jpg And a similar allen wrench, available from Pelican, Sierra Madre, etc. for those barrel nuts... https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f06d57e47c.jpg Having a car from dry country with no other corrosion makes a big difference. I replaced the studs that came out with the fasteners, and the ones that remained, I chased the threads. All new fasteners and a thin coat of anti-seize. Next time around should be much easier. : ) |
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Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14056468)
Nice work John !! I wish I had the space in my garage to pull an engine and put on the stand to work on it like that !! Too many kids bicycles, etc. for now. That time will come... Did you use a Mapp/Oxygen torch, or just a Mapp gas torch? I tried just the Mapp gas and it wouldn't get very hot. When I used Mapp/Oxygen, that made a huge difference. I would put the torch to the HE fasteners, focus it to get things cherry red, and then, they would come right loose. Fortunately I only had four of them that needed so much persuasion with the "hot wrench". The other eight came loose with just a liberal soaking in PB Blaster and Kroil. Having a car from dry country with no other corrosion makes a big difference. I replaced the studs that came out with the fasteners, and the ones that remained, I chased the threads. All new fasteners and a thin coat of anti-seize. Next time around should be much easier. : )
As for space, there's never enough. I tested the boundaries by placing a tail in the gym and my wife repelled the invasion. Next job is to clear space for the engine pieces. That will take a day as nothing can go outside the garage and I still want to drive my Silver car so nothing can go behind it. Boxes full of interior parts, recovered seats with nowhere to go. This is how stuff gets damaged. First world problem. |
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I went to buy that barrel nut tool and was put off by the reviews. Eventually I'll need another one as I can't use a torque wrench with the Facom T.
This is the small universal I used. I like the Bahco quality but realise it's mid range at best. I have enough vices without starting a tool fetish |
Now you know :) .... With the heads off, putting in shiny new (single piece) oil return tubes will be calling your name.... Then on all the cast iron mount pieces of HE maybe some 2000 degree rustoleum primer/paint ... the very very steep slope :( or, you may make RL History for switching ONE O-Ring :crying:
I picked up this from Sears anticipating the HE job ... https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6950f45282.png For the HE nuts... |
That tool is definitely a good idea. With so many nuts/bolts on these cars being 13mm you will get good use out of it.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of overdoing engine aesthetics unless you want to put a mirror on the floor in your garage and never drive it. I will fix broken items and replace worn fastenings but otherwise the focus is on the leak. When are you starting your drop? |
I agree ... it can get quickly out of hand. I have better things to do for the car than beautify exhaust components.. I am planning engine out first week of April. Got stand, yoke, buying tools, dial gauge, lubes, etc. Bought a sissor lift last summer, lift table, stay tuned...
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14057148)
I agree ... it can get quickly out of hand. I have better things to do for the car than beautify exhaust components.. I am planning engine out first week of April. Got stand, yoke, buying tools, dial gauge, lubes, etc. Bought a sissor lift last summer, lift table, stay tuned...
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Not a lot of progress this week, although some interesting developments.
I removed the clutch and flywheel. Both will go back in the car as is, although I will use new flywheel bolts and replace one of the needle bearings. I also removed the cam chain covers and used the special tool to undo the bolts. Too easy At that point I stopped as I noticed that the cylinders were out of stamped order. I assume they were stamped by the Machine shop. A pity the person reassembling the engine couldn't put cylinders 1 and 2 in their correct order. At this point I stopped and rang an expert I trust. He told me that it doesn't impact on the engine as long as the respective pistons went back in their original cylinders. Who knows with this engine? I have entered into negotiations with the OPC that rebuilt the engine, especially as info came to light that they knew it was leaking after the rebuild and tried the RTV fix. As a friend said, this is where Businesses show their true culture. It doesn't look promising right now. |
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Cylinder 2 running the hottest of the six and cylinder 5 running oily
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Knowledge is power and nothing beats inspecting state of parts and pieces yourself. I would do an "as is" cam timing process before removing those sprockets just to see where your at?
If you don't want to do it, perhaps you can take short block to OPC for split of case and reseal, you do everything after? Isn't there a check the machinist does to the case halves that check and correct for warpage and alignment of case halves and webbing? Gonna be interesting when you inspect that Oring condition, what if it looks new? You're going to learn a lot either way :thumbup: |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14075382)
Knowledge is power and nothing beats inspecting state of parts and pieces yourself. I would do an "as is" cam timing process before removing those sprockets just see where your at? If you don't want to do it, perhaps you can take short block to OPC for split of case and reseal, you do everything after? Isn't there a check the machinist does to the case halves that check and correct for warpage and alignment of case halves and webbing? Gonna be interesting when you inspect that Oring condition, what if it looks new? You're going to learn a lot either way :thumbup:
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As I had loosened all of the valve adjusters in anticipation of removing the camshafts I had to readjust the intake valve on cylinder one. Very simple with the Kirk tool.
Turn the pulley clockwise until the number one cylinder is tdc with both valves closed. This is marked with the Z1 mark on the pulley, but beware that it takes 720 degrees of engine turn to complete a full cycle. In other words turning the pulley to Z1 is not enough, it needs to be the Z1 on the compression stroke. Place the tool on the valve screw with the other end sitting on the rocker ridge. Turn the tool knob clockwise until finger tight. This is setting a nil or reference gap. Move the indicator to a line mark. Then turn the knob anti clockwise 36 degrees to the first 0.1mm mark. Turn the lock nut clockwise to preserve the setting. Finished. The pitch of the screw means that turning the knob 36 degrees gives a 0.1mm gap. NB it's not necessary to hold the middle screw as long as you observe it doesn't move while tightening the nut. Btw the third photo is out of sequence. I'll edit the post when I get to a desktop. |
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With the valve adjusted, leave the pulley where it is and put the z block and dial indicator on the intake valve cover stud. Use a valve cover nut to retain it. The end of the dial arm should rest on the valve collet. NB my dial indicator needed to be lifted off the case to give full travel. I did that with a couple of valve cover washers. Zero the dial indicator
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Remove the cam retainer bolt and check that the mark is on the top side. When checked, replace the bolt.
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Turn the pulley clockwise while watching the dial indicator. Just as it gets close to a full revolution you will see the dial indicator move. You want to move the pulley until the dial moves 1.26mm (one full rotation and another 26 marks). Stop there and look at the pulley. If the Z1 reference mark aligns with the case join then timing is correct. Mine was spot on.
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Kirk tool looks interesting, however, every time I set lash on valves, the screw moves and has to be held. I have three steps, back side then the standard tool from WSM to give me sanity check. I then go through full six crank positions (12 tappets) and better feel some play.
Timing looks straight forward. Could you help with my questions; A). True TDC on our cars has Cyl 1 & 4 as overlap (Both at TDC at Z1). B.) When doing the cam timing for Cyl 4 with intake lash set at 1.0mm, do you begin and zero dial gauge at Z1 for Cyl 1 or Z1 360 degrees further when Cyl 4 is only at Z1 ? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14078608)
Kirk tool looks interesting, however, every time I set lash on valves, the screw moves and has to be held. I have three steps, back side then the standard tool from WSM to give me sanity check. I then go through full six crank positions (12 tappets) and better feel some play. Timing looks straight forward. Could you help with my questions; A). True TDC on our cars has Cyl 1 & 4 as overlap (Both at TDC at Z1). B.) When doing the cam timing for Cyl 4 with intake lash set at 1.0mm, do you begin and zero dial gauge at Z1 for Cyl 1 or Z1 360 degrees further when Cyl 4 is only at Z1 ?
To be clear, cylinder 1 and 4 measurements for 1.26mm are 360 degrees apart. |
Sounds intuitive and sure will make perfect sense when I try the process in near future, thanks...
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14079640)
Sounds intuitive and sure will make perfect sense when I try the process in near future, thanks...
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14078608)
Kirk tool looks interesting, however, every time I set lash on valves, the screw moves and has to be held. I have three steps, back side then the standard tool from WSM to give me sanity check. I then go through full six crank positions (12 tappets) and better feel some play.
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Originally Posted by ffc
(Post 14080855)
The Kirk tool is very good but i find I still need three hands when I am adjusting valves under the car when it's on axle stands. Having a mate help reduces the job time and frustration levels considerably.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14081007)
I'm lucky to have only ever done it engine-out. I showed the tool to a Porsche mechanic and he said he still prefers the feeler gauge but many struggle with it because they can't recheck the gap.
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John,
Can you confirm the following as true; Cyl 1 and 4 lash are set correct. When at TDC cyl #1 (cyl #4 also is at TDC at this time) and the dot stamp of both cams therefore is pointing UP. 1st 360 degree turn s/b 1.26mm left cam, 2nd 360 degree turn s/b 1.26mm right cam. This now puts you back at TDC cyl #1 and both dots on cams pointing up. |
I received a PM re the service cover I'm using.
It's available from Pelican. It's a Colgan custom rear service cover http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...+service+cover Please note that the cover isn't perfect. The pad for the air con compressor is on the wrong side and I felt the need to put some cloths under the elastic part that clips on the fenders |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14081994)
John,
Can you confirm the following as true; Cyl 1 and 4 lash are set correct. When at TDC cyl #1 (cyl #4 also is at TDC at this time) and the dot stamp of both cams therefore is pointing UP. 1st 360 degree turn s/b 1.26mm left cam, 2nd 360 degree turn s/b 1.26mm right cam. This now puts you back at TDC cyl #1 and both dots on cams pointing up. Update: I didn't get to the above before I left for Japan. I downed tools for a period at the OPC that did the rebuild's request while they worked out their response to the leak(s). Now that I have that response (reading between the lines they want to split the case themselves, to see whether I can prove fault) I have a definitive position to act on. I've declined their offer, as there's no commitment and I don't want to be given a pile of parts back. So next up is the final strip down. What will I find? |
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I arrived back from Japan and started into the teardown the same day.
The first hurdle came with the four bolts holding the chain bracket. It's a tight fit around the heads and the Bahco 12 point 10mm socket wouldn't fit. It was 14.4mm wide so off to the tool shop. A Toptul 6 point socket at 13.9mm sorted that out. |
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With the guards off and the tensioners removed it was easy to take off the sprockets. As per the workshop manual directions I carefully checked the thrust washer and number of shims.
Unfortunately they were not installed correctly. The shims and thrust washers were in the wrong order and one thrust washer had the wrong orientation. I have no idea if that is an issue or not. |
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With the sprockets and shims off I removed the left hand cam cover. There's an interesting blob of sealant on the cover. Is this going to be repeated on the nose bearing? That could be the cause of my leak.
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I decided to remove all of the tappets and camshaft on the left bank.
The tappets required a lot of socket extensions to get the hex key in the right place. The camshaft is in perfect condition. Two of the tappets have minor pitting. I'll get them checked. |
Is that what's left of paper gasket or was that a sealant coated to paper gasket? They call the bevel a groove makes me feel better it's documented, thanks.
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
Is that what's left of paper gasket or was that a sealant coated to paper gasket? They call the bevel a groove makes me feel better it's documented, thanks.
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With the rockers removed it's relatively easy to remove the camshafts, then undoing a fair few bolts allows the cam tower to be removed, revealing the cylinder heads and valve train.
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Undoing the head studs allows the heads to be removed. The first sight of the pistons is fun but the joy is tempered by the sight of two chips where the early year heads have been machined to accept a sealing ring. If I had that decision again I would have left the heads as per original. At least they appear to be sealing ok.
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Interesting .. wonder if machining jig/lath caused that? Seems to had good seal. So, the orange sealant between cam and heads is not really adhesive makes cam tower come of easy?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
Interesting .. wonder if machining jig/lath caused that? Seems to had good seal. So, the orange sealant between cam and heads is not really adhesive makes cam tower come of easy?
As for the cam towers the 574 application is a bit over the top and it gave a bit of resistance. A lot of studs meant it had to come off almost perfectly vertically. |
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Getting the pistons off requires removal of a circlip and then driving the wrist pin out. I got there eventually, but did it in the wrong order and took the cylinders off unnecessarily early. That meant protecting the rings while holding the piston and the socket and using the mallet.
I found out after the fact that the easiest way for a left hander is to start at cylinder 3. Rotate the engine until the piston is at TDC. Remove the cylinder far enough to get a good view of the wrist pin. Remove the right hand circlip. A strong pic is the best tool for that. Look for the hole closest to the end of the circlip, hook the end out and use needle nose pliers do gently pull the circlip out. Take a suitable socket (I used a 14mm) and place on the left hand of the wrist pin. Gently tap on the socket with a rubber mallet. The pin should start to move. Push it all the way until the pin falls out. Pull the piston and cylinder out together. You can leave them together until you need to look at them. Move to cylinder 2 and repeat then cylinder 1. Then move to cylinders 4,5 & 6. Place rubber bands on the rod ends to hold them. If you are right handed then move in the other direction. You want your dominant hand tapping the socket. |
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When the cylinders are all out, orient the engine with cylinders 1-3 face up. Remove the rubber bands and fit the chain and rod holders.
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Remove the intermediate shaft cover, then all of the bolts holding the case halves together. There are a lot of them. Gently hit the case ears with a rubber mallet and the case should pop. If it doesn't, then check again that all of the bolts are undone. Lift the case half off and gaze at the oily bits that will cost you $$$ if you don't look after them.
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Remove the crank shaft and undo the bolts for the oil pump then lift that and the intermediate shaft out.
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You now have two case halves with just bearings attached. While the sight is impressive the first time, I now understand why mechanics avoid splitting the case. Apart from bearings there isn't much to go wrong in there and the uncertainty of a reseal could make splitting the case a poor risk / reward option
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great pics, thanks for sharing them !
"light refurb" ... as the title says ;) |
Originally Posted by me964
great pics, thanks for sharing them !
"light refurb" ... as the title says ;) As for 'light refurb' it's a case of under promising and over delivering ;) |
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Now onto the reason for the disassembly, the leaking nose bearing.
As you probably know, all of the crankshaft bearings are solid and pressure fed with lubricating oil. The pressure is ~ 5 bar (72 psi) at full throttle. The rear main seal and nose bearing are at opposite ends of the crankshaft and are sealed differently. In my car, the leaking bearing area is the nose bearing. The bearing is fed oil at its side. This lubricates the surface of the bearing in contact with the crankshaft. Any oil that runs to the end of the crankshaft is caught by a seal and runs back to the case inside via two holes. Any oil that runs outside the bearing inside the case is caught by the o-ring and fed back into the case via the relief channel. The various methods of stopping a leak around the outside of the bearing look to improve the sealing. As I have a leak when there is no sealant I'm not leaving it without anything. The question is which option to take? I'm leaning towards Threebond 1211 on the outer bearing face and Dow 111 on the o ring |
I am just about to fit the Tom Amon ring today, so understand this. I suppose you can only put sealant on the thin shoulder after the oring as the oil would be passing on its way out?
Otherwise dont you risk blocking the feed hole? |
Originally Posted by tdiquattro
I am just about to fit the Tom Amon ring today, so understand this. I suppose you can only put sealant on the thin shoulder after the oring as the oil would be passing on its way out?
Otherwise dont you risk blocking the feed hole? The hole for the oil feed would be very difficult to block with sealant. The suggestion elsewhere is a translucent film. I think I will use 111 on the o-ring and 1211 on the outer edge in touch with the case. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14143422)
You now have two case halves with just bearings attached. While the sight is impressive the first time, I now understand why mechanics avoid splitting the case. Apart from bearings there isn't much to go wrong in there and the uncertainty of a reseal could make splitting the case a poor risk / reward option
Keep it up, lots of us lurking and enjoying the show (with clean hands). |
+1 what he said... Thanks for sharing great pics and observations during the deep dive... Been Subscribed...
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Not sure if I agree re: splitting the case being a "poor risk/reward option". I suppose car mileage would factor into it. I debated whether to split or not, but @ 192k I felt replacing the rod bearings, timing chain & cleaning out the case (oil galleys) the reward out weighed the risks. I'll let you know if I still feel that way once I start next week lol.
As Steve W. said, you don't want a "repeat performance". |
Originally Posted by S2K993
Not sure if I agree re: splitting the case being a "poor risk/reward option". I suppose car mileage would factor into it. I debated whether to split or not, but @ 192k I felt replacing the rod bearings, timing chain & cleaning out the case (oil galleys) the reward out weighed the risks. I'll let you know if I still feel that way once I start next week lol.
As Steve W. said, you don't want a "repeat performance". |
Why a "limited time" ? Are you referring to sealant drying time ?
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Originally Posted by S2K993
Why a "limited time" ? Are you referring to sealant drying time ?
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Case cleaning equipment. The sand pit will rest on the engine stand base and catch fluids.
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Case halves cleaned. Degreaser, Simple Green and CRC gasket remover. The latter was good on the 574 and JB Weld. Now to get the cases and cam towers professionally cleaned.
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Case halves and cam towers washed for 30 minutes in heated water based solvent. They came out very clean but not polished new look clean.
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Finishing the case preparation has brought me close to sealing the case and the knees are starting to tremble.
So much time has been spent to get to this point and the case sealing results won't be known until the engine starts up again. I don't want or need to blaze a trail. Yet I also know that the original factory method didn't work on the nose bearing so it can't be done by the book. I have read many threads, have the workshop manual plus the P fix it DVD, and have all of the sealants. In the next few days I will experiment with sealant placement and amounts. To show you how detailed this job is I have highlighted an area on the case that some seem to miss. It's an oil release channel that Porsche designed to stop a leak in the through bolt channel migrating outside the case. Mine was full of sealant, albeit the area hadn't leaked. |
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And from the manual. Thanks Andreas
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I took the chipped cylinders to the machine shop that almost certainly did the work. They said that they were fine to reuse as did an independent mechanic. However I had a nagging thought that I would do all of this work and potentially have leaks so I went a different route. I have bought another set of cylinders and pistons from which I will use two to replace the chipped ones. These are likely spares from a Singer conversion as the ad said the engine was converted to 4 litres.
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A few words of caution about buying used cylinders and pistons:
1. Cylinders must all be the same height group on the same bank. The two height groups are 5 & 6. Those numbers are stamped on the base inside a triangle 2. A piston and cylinder should be replaced as a unit as they wear together and have the correct tolerance groups. 3. Pistons are categorized into weight groups. Ideally the pistons should all be the same weight group for balance. If the new piston is heavier it can be shaved. My new used cylinders and pistons are the same height and tolerance group as my existing ones but the pistons are a weight group above. |
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Early 964s have no head gasket. The heads seal by sitting in a metal/metal channel.
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The factory solution is to put new cylinders and pistons on and shave the head flat.
The other solution (what I have) is to cut a groove in the cylinder top and fit a sealing ring. The danger with this is that the cut goes very close to the edge of the cylinder leading to a weakness that allows chips I.e. What happened to me. If it's any indication, my independent mechanic said to fit the new cylinders as is with no cut groove. |
Just for info John, I fitted the Tom Amon ring, sealed well, fitted new front main seal, a Elring one, way way better than the origninal or the genuine Pork one I ordered, it had a double lip and two part material.
Had a problem sealing at the crank bolt and found I had an early bolt, the new ones are revised and have a shoulder, worth checking yours, and I would highly reccomend front and rear Elring main seals. Will check to see if the ring is leaking after a bit of use. Also reccomend the Dansk exhaust clamps, the welds failed on my 3 expensive new pork ones, the dansk welds are much stronger. Oh and whilst you have the engine out do the diff input shaft seal on the front diff - very easy to do by dropping the whole torque tube!, dont forget the small rubber seal inside the shaft. Much easier than trying to remove the diff. |
Originally Posted by tdiquattro
(Post 14164499)
a Elring one, way way better than the origninal or the genuine Pork one I ordered, it had a double lip and two part material.
http://members.rennlist.org/jandreas...MS-Closeup.jpg or the normal style with a spring? http://members.rennlist.org/jandreas...AR-Closeup.jpg or another type? |
The normal one with the spring, I know they changed them in later cars, but I have read that they tend to leak so folks have been installing the old type. Just that the old type are different quality depending on manufacturer and the Elring ones looked much better. 250 miles so far no leaks. :)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c9d7eef21b.jpg |
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Originally Posted by tdiquattro
Just for info John, I fitted the Tom Amon ring, sealed well, fitted new front main seal, a Elring one, way way better than the origninal or the genuine Pork one I ordered, it had a double lip and two part material.
Had a problem sealing at the crank bolt and found I had an early bolt, the new ones are revised and have a shoulder, worth checking yours, and I would highly reccomend front and rear Elring main seals. Will check to see if the ring is leaking after a bit of use. Also reccomend the Dansk exhaust clamps, the welds failed on my 3 expensive new pork ones, the dansk welds are much stronger. Oh and whilst you have the engine out do the diff input shaft seal on the front diff - very easy to do by dropping the whole torque tube!, dont forget the small rubber seal inside the shaft. Much easier than trying to remove the diff. Not sure about the front diff seals. I have so much on the to do list I'll never finish. I have decided to reseal the power steering pump and change out my ignition wires. |
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The nose bearing wasn't my only issue. The IMS cover was also leaking. The old one had ball peen hammer marks on it and a gap on the top edge. The new one fits a lot better but I'll still use some sealant as insurance.
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Some parts prices are just plain ridiculous. The Euro fog light insert is one at GBP 19 (USD 25). Luckily I picked up a box of parts gratis from an ex C2 owner and found one in the box.
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I am just replacing o-ring on IMS cover no sealant as was not leaking. Is that shining foil piece on your pw seal package from something else?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14166869)
I am just replacing o-ring on IMS cover no sealant as was not leaking. Is that shining foil piece on your pw seal package from something else?
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I replaced the fogs and fittings either side with one section CUP clear plastic lenses. more rhobust as I had 2 fogs cracked with stones. never used the fogs anyway and I think it cleans up the front of the car. fairly cheap as well. can PPF them as well to make them last.
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Every day is your birthday with a 964. New ignition wires (nice surprise to see that they come with the alternator surround), new rear fan motor and some over mats (average quality but properly priced).
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Originally Posted by tdiquattro
(Post 14164953)
The normal one with the spring, I know they changed them in later cars, but I have read that they tend to leak so folks have been installing the old type. Just that the old type are different quality depending on manufacturer and the Elring ones looked much better. 250 miles so far no leaks. :)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c9d7eef21b.jpg |
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Cleaning pistons, cylinders and heads. While the temptation is to shine the pistons to a high polish finish, the guide I read said removing all carbon is unnecessary. Not sure I can cope with that so tomorrow I have no doubt I'll revisit the non shiny ones.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14170475)
Are they light years ahead of the other versions? PP just advised me of a longer lead time to obtain the Elring versions. I can't close my case until I have them.
OPC genuine ones are Kaco anyway so they can't be bad! https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...87cd30c13e.jpg |
Originally Posted by tdiquattro
(Post 14171484)
I am sure the other makes will be fine, these just look to be better wider inner surface area, double lip, complex make up with the different rubbers.
OPC genuine ones are Kaco anyway so they can't be bad! https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...87cd30c13e.jpg |
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Four tappets/followers off to be refaced. I'm not sure if all of them can be refaced as at least one (on left) is quite pitted, but it's worth a try.
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I've started replacing the ignition wires. While one connector had a minor split in the boot I came away wondering whether these were the originals or if I had spent good money replacing something that wasn't broken. Too late now
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Coils replaced. I had one go bad and it was replaced by a used one. The mechanic suggested I change both of them when I had the chance. The new ones are the Brazilian Silver ones. Let's hope these don't live up to their reputation.
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The cylinder head temp sensor is a bear to replace in situ and I've seen cars where they cause problems so I decided to replace mine.
The sensor is a simple thermistor i.e. It changes resistance depending on the temperature. The DME uses the value to adjust the mixture. This page from the manual spells it out. |
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Before I put the sensor in my bulging used spares box I decided to test it. I connected it to a multimeter and tested it room temp (1,815 ohms), in ice water (4,220 ohms) and in hot water (424 ohms). It clearly works.
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I did my CHT sensor in the car. It wasn't that bad, just jack the car, pull the PS rear wheel, pull the sensor with a modified socket, unplug from the connector behind the blower, Bob's your uncle.
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Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14180764)
pull the sensor with a modified socket
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Weekend is wash day. Engine shroud, intakes, engine tin and about to start on the heat exchangers. New ignition wires are fitted.
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New Zealand is a temperate climate with no road salt so these heat exchangers are still in great condition after 27 years.
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If you read the entirely of this thread you'd wonder how reliable 964s are. Well, I can say that the amount of work done doesn't reflect breakage, just my OCD nature.
Buying a new set of pistons and cylinders falls into that category. I have no doubt the originals would have been ok, but I want perfect and I'm very happy with what arrived from Autobahn. Everything looks in great condition and there are only 2 grams weight difference across all 6 pistons. That said, these are 11 grams heavier than my existing pistons so I have decided to fit them as a set rather than mix and match with my existing set. More cleaning required. |
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Cleaning the pistons and cylinders allowed me to see the numbers on each. The new pistons were produced five months later than my originals. They also appear to have the cylinder number stamped on all but one.
Unfortunately these numbers don't correspond to the cylinder numbers the pistons were packed in. While everything is the same tolerance group I don't want to make an assumption that bites me in the backside later so I'm taking them to a machine shop for measurement. That way I can be sure that the cylinders and pistons are matched for consistent tolerances. By the way, the pistons ex carbon deposits and rings are within 1 gram of each other (5 of them are the same weight). Fritz was on his game when this set was matched. |
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Another of the engine out jobs on the list was a power steering pump rebuild. Mine wasn't leaking but I didn't want to do this with the engine in, which it would eventually require and the Rennbay kit was reasonably priced.
There are DIY instructions in the forum and Rennbay have a YouTube video. It's relatively easy except for the circlip, which I had to slightly bend to remove. It is easy to rebend when installing. Now I need to replace the lower seal and O ring which may not be in my gasket sets. |
Very nice John!
I've got this on my to do list when I pull the motor. Can you expand on the detail of the hourglass shaped seal and the reinforcement that goes inside? Does that metal or plastic reinforcement just lay in from the top? Thanks! |
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Originally Posted by Super90
Very nice John!
I've got this on my to do list when I pull the motor. Can you expand on the detail of the hourglass shaped seal and the reinforcement that goes inside? Does that metal or plastic reinforcement just lay in from the top? Thanks! Btw instructions say to mark the pump housing before opening it. That is unnecessary as there are cast marks on the case and it's obvious how it goes back together. |
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The machine shop measurement verdict is back. The 27 year old cylinders and pistons have held up well.
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Last of the big cleaning jobs, the heads. Gasket stripper on the Loctite 574, throttle cleaner on the carbon and a lot of elbow grease.
I'm also replacing exhaust studs where they chose to come out rather than release the nuts attached to them. The stud thread lengths are not symmetrical - a trap for young players. I used Loctite 263 thread locker for the studs and finished the exposed thread with copper grease to keep them good for the install later on. |
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The rebuild is stalled waiting on parts so I had a big garage clean up in pre build preparation (yes, that is clean for me)
All of the existing parts have been cleaned and measured so when the parts arrive it will be like an operating theatre as it all goes back together with (sort of) clean room cleanliness and military precision. Btw it's easy to take your time when you have a spare 964 to drive in the meantime ;) |
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First items have arrived at home.
4 refaced tappets Cylinder head temp sensor Oil return tubes Ignition lead clips Piston rings. Fan pulley shim Nose bearing seal. This is only the start. There are 5 more deliveries to come. |
Not much to say except thank you for the future reference. Great organised work.
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Hi John,
Is there any reason why you didn't change the more recalcitrant exhaust studs while the heads are out of the car? I'm just curious and wondering whether they are more prone to breakage later on? Cheers Dave |
Originally Posted by ffc
Hi John,
Is there any reason why you didn't change the more recalcitrant exhaust studs while the heads are out of the car? I'm just curious and wondering whether they are more prone to breakage later on? Cheers Dave I figured that the risk/reward of pulling out serviceable studs to put in shiny new ones wasn't good if I chanced breaking one in the head. Let sleeping dogs lie. It helps that the NZ climate is benign. These won't cause me any problems if I have to go back in there one day. That said I'm putting all new nuts on for insurance. |
Originally Posted by Rennlistuser8
Not much to say except thank you for the future reference. Great organised work.
Btw: I'm an addicted tinkerer with OCD tendencies. A lot of what I've done here is for the love of it rather than the need e.g. The existing oil return tubes were fine. I saw that they were inexpensive new so 'had' to change them. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14208319)
Hi Dave, If the studs didn't move when I undid the nuts I left them well alone except for running a new nut over each one before putting the copper grease on them.
I figured that the risk/reward of pulling out serviceable studs to put in shiny new ones wasn't good if I chanced breaking one in the head. Let sleeping dogs lie. It helps that the NZ climate is benign. These won't cause me any problems if I have to go back in there one day. That said I'm putting all new nuts on for insurance. |
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Home for 36 hours then flying out for another two weeks. Time to just make sure I'm on the right track.
The refaced tappets look good albeit I had to Google the parkerised finish as I was expecting shiny chrome on the faces. It was done by a professional cam grinding firm so I have to trust them this is a suitable finish. The warning on the invoice about only using ZDDP rich oils in flat tappet engines is encouraging. The cost to reface four was USD 70. |
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New rings. I've had a practice with the old set. I need to be on my game with these to make sure I don't break them or possibly worse i.e. Install them upside down
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Cylinder head temp sensor comes with everything needed. Same old connector unlike the new crank position sensors.
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One annoyance with aging is the need for a lot of task lighting. There are numerous options with tower lights, rechargeable lights, head based lights however all of them have drawbacks.
I have a set of 8 LED panel lights to install but they need an electrician and a clear garage. I had this brain fade during the week and had proof of concept this afternoon. Overhead lighting that can be height adjusted and never needs recharging. Just a little fussy to get absolutely square and level but there's a clear improvement. |
I am right there with you on shop lighting... I have a hand held led spot light and it drives me crazy... I had to point it off the object I am working on to get the light I wanted...
You have some exciting steps coming up with closing the case, will be following for sure. I walked to the edge of Abyss and looked, you're there in all it's glory. :burnout: |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14214552)
I am right there with you on shop lighting... I have a hand held led spot light and it drives me crazy... I had to point it off the object I am working on to get the light I wanted... You have some exciting steps coming up with closing the case, will be following for sure. I walked to the edge of Abyss and looked, you're there in all it's glory. :burnout:
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great pics and a neat fun garage to work in ... have you considered converting to C2?
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Originally Posted by tdiquattro
(Post 14171484)
I am sure the other makes will be fine, these just look to be better wider inner surface area, double lip, complex make up with the different rubbers. OPC genuine ones are Kaco anyway so they can't be bad!
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On the good news front, a fellow NZ Rennlister, Spokes, has ordered a PDT 999. It's taking time for them to build as some parts were on back order but will be worth it when it arrives. I'll enjoy using it when I need to bleed the diff locks. New Motive bleed bottles purchased in anticipation.
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Originally Posted by HiWind
great pics and a neat fun garage to work in ... have you considered converting to C2?
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^^^ thanks for the insight ...
LOL i remember one of the back markers in our classic cars race (basically a free for all pre 1985) in a audi quattro that had really lived IYKWIM ... on formation lap the heavens open and Capris, GTAs, Darts, Pcars, Escorts etc... are all backed up and timid and the quattro comes past the whole lot of them from 20th to 1st (on the grass no less! his excuse being better visibility!) before T1! ... so if it didn't rain/snow much where you were, you'd consider it? |
Originally Posted by HiWind
(Post 14222659)
^^^ thanks for the insight ...
LOL i remember one of the back markers in our classic cars race (basically a free for all pre 1985) in a audi quattro that had really lived IYKWIM ... on formation lap the heavens open and Capris, GTAs, Darts, Pcars, Escorts etc... are all backed up and timid and the quattro comes past the whole lot of them from 20th to 1st (on the grass no less! his excuse being better visibility!) before T1! ... so if it didn't rain/snow much where you were, you'd consider it? |
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The critical piece for closing the case has arrived, a new #8 bearing. I'll be putting the vernier all over this before installing it.
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Speaking of closing the case, this is a minor nightmare as no-one appears to do it the same way e.g. The 'modern' methods start with the through bolts but the workshop manual starts with the case peripheral fasteners. The reason this is important is that there is 45 minutes to put o rings in place and do up 30 plus fasteners and there are two competing priorities.
1. The through bolts control the area around the crankshaft and could impact on bearing clearances. 2. The peripheral fasteners control the case seal integrity. On balance I prefer the modern method as I'm more concerned about bearing tolerances over the longer term. |
The other nightmare is sealant choice. I will likely stick with the workshop manual spec of Loctite 574 due to its working time of 45 minutes. The Threebond product skins quite quickly in comparison.
Around the nose bearing there are so many choices. I've decided to use a light smear of Loctite 574 on the main area next to the oil channel entry, Dow Molykote 55 on the o ring and a light smear of Curil T on the edge that sits on the case edge. The leaking nose bearing appeared to have been installed completely dry so anything is an improvement. |
That #8 bearing is quite the engineering feat. Are all the slots, holes for lubrication flow? It was interesting in the last months of my "little" project to sample all those sealants.. Add Moly 111 and the EP clutch parts grease and they all feel quite different between the thumb and finger. That Curil T has a unique feel. Closing the case, I'd be having dreams about it, happy dreams!
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14224685)
That #8 bearing is quite the engineering feat. Are all the slots, holes for lubrication flow? It was interesting in the last months of my "little" project to sample all those sealants.. Add Moly 111 and the EP clutch parts grease and they all feel quite different between the thumb and finger. That Curil T has a unique feel. Closing the case, I'd be having dreams about it, happy dreams!
I'm working out how to film the case closing. Right now, I'm thinking a Go-pro on 2 second frame grabs would equate to a minute on YouTube. Not an original idea but I'd like a record of it for posterity. |
The Case reseal is on a countdown to this time next week.
I'm often impatient so forced time to think and research is helping formulate a hopefully well thought out plan. The big question throughout the teardown was how to reseal this to end up with a leak free engine, particularly the nose bearing area. Part of the process is understanding how Porsche engineers intended the oil system to work, then I can understand why people propose what they do and whether I'll go with it or not. To better understand it I researched basic oil system theory. Wow, so much to contemplate. I didn't realise that the system design was so complicated. Basically the pump produced pressure forces oil along galleries where their size and part tolerances determine the flow and pressure drop at individual points e.g. If bearing tolerances are worn the pressure is lower as more oil is lost at the bearing face than intended. That's why a worn engine may show reduced pressure. The other important point is that oil flows from high to low pressure zones and Porsche have created flow points to pressure drop zones, which keeps the oil going where it should be going. With respect to the nose bearing this is critical. |
What this means is that I no longer think I should interfere with the wider bearing area as this is part of the pressure drop zone i.e. The more pressure drop areas I block off the less the pressure will drop and flow where intended. What I will do is lightly coat the immediate area around the high pressure feed area to minimise the oil entering the bearing exterior but otherwise I will let Porsches design do its work where the o ring and nose bearing seal are the main defence against oil leaving the case if the pressure drop points are overloaded.
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Pics say it all
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Old and new, albeit the new ones were made in 1997 and stocked in 8/98. That's one heck of a carry period. I hope the new ones are Aluminum. I'm over Magnesium parts. USD 82 each.
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Proof of concept with the sealant method. It appears conclusive that the best result comes from spreading a thin layer over the area with a sponge. Putting more or having a thick layer just ends up with sealant where you don't necessarily want it.
Three areas with a slightly different application method in each |
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Result in each area on the side of the case which had the sealant on it.
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Side view of the same case side. Clear seepage inside the case with the bead method
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Other case half. Nice coverage with each method but again the bead method leaves too much surplus.
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The conclusion is to use the sponge spread method with care as to how much is on the inside edge. While Loctite 574 shouldn't dry in open air areas I found globs on my engine while dismantling it so I don't think it's license to go mad.
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John,
Is the center of pic on post 655 the spong? As I wish I had a map of how all oil flows through the case, were you able to blow air through various oil routes in case halves after cleaning kind of thing? Your keeping all bearings throughout other than #8? Fun stuff. :corn: |
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Sponge method is this photo. It's really more about spreading the sealant the way you want it to go than sponging excess off the area.
Btw this was not Loctite 574. I used a past use by date bottle of Wurth Flange Sealant. I'd be worried if my 574 came out with streaks of colour in it. |
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I'm blowing air through the galleries with this. If it's good enough for missile casings it's good enough for a 964
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Arrrgh. Another present from mechanics past. There are 25 peripheral case studs. I did a practice run to put a nut on each and this is what I found on the last one, evidence of serious cross threading. This is beyond running a die over it. Just to top it off the 48mm stud is USD 10. You have to love Porsche's dedication to profiteering.
With the stud unable to tighten I've decided to delay putting the case together until all is correct. I figure it's a poor risk reward to risk that stud area leaking in future because it wasn't held tightly enough. |
Many decades ago, I was working on a motorcycle, nothing more complicated than replacing the spark plug and I was given the following advice to avoid cross threading.
1. Get in a position to clearly see what orientation your nut/bolt has to the other fastener. This helps prevent being off skew 2. Use hands wherever possible to tighten the fastener. Tools can mask the force being applied. The fastener should start easily with little resistance. 3. Start by rotating the fastener backwards against the other one. At one point in a 360 degree turn you will feel a click. This is where the thread ends are meeting. At that point start to rotate it forwards and the threads should engage and rotate easily for the first few turns at least. Finally, know the correct torque rating and use a torque wrench to apply it. Follow the above and you should avoid leaving presents for yourself and others. |
John,
I was searching YT for ignition timing videos and stumbled upon your short video using some nice looking software ... At idle it looked like your 964 was at 12.75 spark advance? I thought the 964 spec for idle is 4-5 degrees +/- 1-2 degrees? Do you know what our total timing degree is? Is it noted in WSM? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14252106)
John, I was searching YT for ignition timing videos and stumbled upon your short video using some nice looking software ... At idle it looked like your 964 was at 12.75 spark advance? I thought the 964 spec for idle is 4-5 degrees +/- 1-2 degrees? Do you know what our total timing degree is? Is it noted in WSM?
The reading you are seeing is an after market ECU I used to have on my car. It ran too rich and I sold it. |
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More parts have arrived. These are to replace a seal in the front diff and change the mount at the front. Near enough USD 100 for all of that. I'm surprised because the mount is quite substantial. I'm doing this because it's easiest when the engine is out.
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To make the above order more worthwhile I added some new wiper ware and a special wiper puller.
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Looking good!
Re: idle timing. Stock should be 0. Aftermarket chips are usually around 4deg advanced, which gives a bit better idle. However, that's at operating temperature. More advance is added before the cht reaches operating temp. In case you're comparing numbers. |
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There are 18 collar pin studs on the timing chain covers and 16 came out with the nut. Not what I wanted.
I had to remove the nut, concave washer and rubber insert from each stud, clean them up then reinsert them into the case. The only way to hold the studs while unscrewing the nuts was vice grips. A few marks required clean up but nothing critical. I then ran a tap in each hole, checked the stud would screw in completely, then put Loctite 263 on the thread and torqued each down to 7 ft lbs (10Nm) using an old nut. The critical test was undoing the temporary nut. All successful. I was very careful cleaning the cases as they are magnesium. I figured that aggressive scrubbing could compromise the surface. |
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when i was at this stage, I cleaned my cases up with some fine wet and dry...
Attachment 1191487 Attachment 1191488 Attachment 1191489 |
Originally Posted by Michael D'Silva
when i was at this stage, I cleaned my cases up with some fine wet and dry...
http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/...psqonvxmli.jpg http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/...psfkdbrvjx.jpg http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/...psmg4uvhq3.jpg |
How are people treating the exposed magnesium after removing the corrosion coating? Prior to the 964 these chain boxes were aluminum so it wasn't so much a problem but now???
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I'd like to know what that original coating on the chain boxes really is? Is it baked on?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14256359)
I'd like to know what that original coating on the chain boxes really is? Is it backed on?
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I used a zinc-phosphate dip on my fan (so not a coating) and it gave it a very factory look ala the chain covers etc.. process microblast then zinc phosphate w activator at 30deg dip for 15-20min. This is a formula used by a guy near me who does high end 911S/T type restos which he uses on mag gearboxes etc..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...89ee2cdea.jpeg |
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I had hoped that this would be the last order but I stuffed up my stud order. It appears that an 8x48mm stud is not 48mm long, it is 48mm long after the stud is inserted. The one I actually need is 8x32mm. I've put another order in. Unfortunately it will take another week to arrive, closing my rebuild window as I have another three weeks travel coming up. This rebuild is dragging on.
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Along with the wrong stud, I received the other parts of my order. A spare distributor for my other C4, a seal puller for the front diff seal I'll replace and a spare crankcase gasket set. The Elring brand is preferred by some for the front and rear crankshaft seals. I find it interesting how different the various brands are with what they include e.g. The Porsche one has the case perimeter bolts whereas the Elring set doesn't. This helps explains the reason why the various sets differ so much In price.
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New oil temp and pressure sender. The old ones were original with 5/90 markings. They still worked but why chance it when its so easy to sort these with the engine out? Also more evidence of gorilla mechanics in the past :(
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Originally Posted by HiWind
(Post 14261585)
I used a zinc-phosphate dip on my fan (so not a coating) and it gave it a very factory look ala the chain covers etc.. process microblast then zinc phosphate w activator at 30deg dip for 15-20min. This is a formula used by a guy near me who does high end 911S/T type restos which he uses on mag gearboxes etc..
Any reason you went with this dip rather than a sand/media blast and powder coat? |
^^ yes Powder coat is thicker and can cause issues (many comments on the forum re rubbing etc..) and also it seals the metal where the dip allows it to remain 'breathable' for want of a better word while still protected.
The PC was also bubbling a bit after 3 years .. as the the base metal is very hard to completely clean (many PC guys wont even accept mag because of this) so effectively the bubbling results when the contaminants try leave but are blocked by the PC. Also the finish is just so period correct and factory I just dug it - felt right. |
Thanks for the education HiWind. It does look very nice. :thumbup:
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Back on track. I have the right stud and a few parts bought with it to defray shipping costs.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14264743)
a seal puller
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14252186)
More parts have arrived. These are to replace a seal in the front diff and change the mount at the front. .
I see the big seal is the one for the front diff (#20 right?) Where do the two pieces in the top 2 pics go? Are those what number 2 (stopper) and ...???... Are you not replacing #18 (side seal)? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3c085b7159.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...93ffa9b808.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...30b1c13923.jpg |
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
That style of seal puller is horrible. You will have much better luck drilling two holes into the seal and then using two screws to pull it out, same goes for the engine RMS and FMS.
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Originally Posted by HiWind
Hi John - I'm just at the same place on my '90C4 with the subframe off and everything getting resealed.
I see the big seal is the one for the front diff (#20 right?) Where do the two pieces in the top 2 pics go? Are those what number 2 (stopper) and ...???... Are you not replacing #18 (side seal)? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3c085b7159.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...93ffa9b808.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...30b1c13923.jpg As for the side seals, I hadn't thought that far forward. I figured they could be done later if they leak. That said I have to do the boot on the inner left CV so it would make sense to do it before I refill the diff. |
I haven't had any problems using that style puller. I put a rag under the pivot edge so that it doesn't ding any soft aluminum. Those big seals lift out fairly easily. I prefer that style over metal shavings and the possibility of having the drill go too far.
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Nose bearing seal. Clean area with alcohol, small bead of Curil T around the area where the seal edge meets the bearing and push the seal home by hand.
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When disassembling I numbered all of the bearing shells and bearing support areas, then took photos. When I reassembled them I renumbered the supports as per the photos to ensure each bearing went back exactly where it came from. I cleaned each bearing shell with white spirits. I also put clean air through the galleries.
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Installing the oil pump, intermediate shaft and chains. A small coat of Molykote 111 on the seal that goes under the pump. Assembly grease in the pump and on the bearings. Put the chains back on the correct side and make sure the chain link joiner faces out of the engine. Drop it all in being careful to make sure the oil pump goes in squarely on the seal. Torque three oil pump nuts to 17 ft/lb or 25Nm. Rotate the shaft to make sure it moves freely. Wipe off the excess assembly grease and fit the temporary chain holder. Next is the crankshaft.
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John,
Whose seal kit are you using? Reason I ask, a local shop was using a Victor Reinz kit for a reseal, they installed the cylinder base to case o-rings, and had severe leaking. The o-ring cross section was not uniform, once they examined after disassembly. They then ordered Porsche factory cylinder base o-rings. Those had slightly larger cross section, and were completely uniform. Problem solved. I'm going to use a Wrightwood kit on my project. |
Originally Posted by Super90
John,
Whose seal kit are you using? Reason I ask, a local shop was using a Victor Reinz kit for a reseal, they installed the cylinder base to case o-rings, and had severe leaking. The o-ring cross section was not uniform, once they examined after disassembly. They then ordered Porsche factory cylinder base o-rings. Those had slightly larger cross section, and were completely uniform. Problem solved. I'm going to use a Wrightwood kit on my project. |
Reportedly, though I don't have the data, Porsche calls for a 2mm cross section on those o-rings.
As for sealant on the cylinder base o-rings, their commentary was along these lines.... They did not use Curil T. On the case spigot to cylinder base o-ring area they used Permatex 80697 copper coat spray gasket sealant applied by spraying some into a small container the used a small brush to apply it to both the grooves in the cylinder base as well as the groove on case side and a bit onto the o-ring itself. Not big globs, just enough to make sure it covers everything for a maximum seal. You don’t want it just gushing out all over the place. Common sense should be used here. No direct experience myself, just sharing their methodology, as they shared it with me. Each shop has it's own preferences. Perhaps Steve or Colin will weigh in.... I know you have been combing the "Sealant" thread on Pelican too... |
Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14284006)
Reportedly, though I don't have the data, Porsche calls for a 2mm cross section on those o-rings.
As for sealant on the cylinder base o-rings, their commentary was along these lines.... They did not use Curil T. On the case spigot to cylinder base o-ring area they used Permatex 80697 copper coat spray gasket sealant applied by spraying some into a small container the used a small brush to apply it to both the grooves in the cylinder base as well as the groove on case side and a bit onto the o-ring itself. Not big globs, just enough to make sure it covers everything for a maximum seal. You don’t want it just gushing out all over the place. Common sense should be used here. No direct experience myself, just sharing their methodology, as they shared it with me. Each shop has it's own preferences. Perhaps Steve or Colin will weigh in.... I know you have been combing the "Sealant" thread on Pelican too... I've done a lot of research and it is bewildering at times e.g. the local experienced mechanics don't support anything other than 574 on the case seal whereas it's Threebond on Henry's list. Then there's the trolling on Molykote 55 vs 111. The P fix it DVD isn't 100% comprehensive. Some torque settings are only mentioned in one document. I just have to choose my own path and own the decisions. I'm enjoying myself though, especially as installation is cleaner than disassembly. |
Those are the cylinder barrel to case O-rings? As I was so hopeful that the tc gaskets and cam o-rings would solve my only noticeable oil leak, i still have the leak. Cannot see source coz those cooling deflectors are in the way... I suspect the barrel o-rings you chaps are discussing.... Noted!
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14284589)
Those are the cylinder barrel to case Orings? As I was so hopeful that the tc gaskets and cam orings would solve my only noticeable oil leak, i still have the leak. Cannot see source coz those cooling deflectors are in the way... I suspect the barrel orings you chaps are discussing.... Noted!
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Exactly. When I had engine on stand, shroud off and before cleaning anything, I checked the through bolt saddle and all dry as far as I could tell. But after playing with my temp gun, it is amazing these engines don't fry o-rings much sooner. Cylinder head and barrels 300F+ degrees, Cat 450F+ ... It's bloody hell in there.... I pointed it at base metal of distributors 170F ...
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Mine has been leaking at the cylinder bases. Pulling the motor to fix that. Since it's all coming apart, we are putting in the latest model, upgraded 3.6L pistons and cylinders.
Case through bolts are another of the "usual suspects", without a doubt. Again, VR o-rings are suspect according to a few I have talked to. Porsche original, or Wrightwood kit. My engine builder is at a different shop. I'll ask his preference on the cylinder base o-ring sealant... |
^^ can one order the wrightwood kit direct or is it only available to dealers?
ps - it didnt include the RSR rocker shaft seals which are worth doing per Steve W and I did those too |
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Crankshaft in place with assembly grease etc. next step is fitting the nose bearing and closing the case. That will wait until Saturday when I have lots of light, time and hopefully an awake son to hold the through bolts etc.
BTW the crank seal isn't fully inserted as I need to lift the crankshaft out slightly to fit the nose bearing. |
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I measured Porsche and Victor Reinz O rings. Porsche rings are 2.0mm in both dimensions. Victor Reinz are slightly oval with the shorter dimension being 0.06mm less. Not sure that this would necessarily matter, especially with spray sealant in there
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I sourced specialised running in oil. Zinc levels in this are close to 1,700 ppm so should protect my tappets and Cams well.
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Originally Posted by HiWind
(Post 14285354)
^^ can one order the wrightwood kit direct or is it only available to dealers? ps - it didnt include the RSR rocker shaft seals which are worth doing per Steve W and I did those too
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14285370)
I measured Porsche and Victor Reinz O rings. Porsche rings are 2.0mm in both dimensions. Victor Reinz are slightly oval with the shorter dimension being 0.06mm less. Not sure that this would necessarily matter, especially with spray sealant in there
That copper spray he mentions sounds like the same the other shop discussed. I confirmed with them on that Permatex copper sealant and that is what they used. Interesting. It's never simple... Time will tell, as I'll most likely have the Reinzosil on mine when he does that assembly. We can compare notes in the future... 😊 |
Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14285765)
Per my engine builder... "He likes Reinzosil, good to 300 degrees C! Has used a silicone grease on the green viton o-rings at the base with no other sealant, at times, however. Issue with sealant is you want to clamp it down and not let up. That is a bit difficult on cylinders. The o-rings and surface finish really provide the seal. Older engines had copper gaskets, and he uses a copper spray on coating on those. This Reinzolsil works good on cam housing to head assembly too. Technique is critical to clamping it up." That copper spray he mentions sounds like the same the other shop discussed. I confirmed with them on that Permatex copper sealant and that is what they used. Interesting. It's never simple... Time will tell, as I'll most likely have the Reinzosil on mine when he does that assembly. We can compare notes in the future... dde0a
Isn't it ironic that Reinzosil is a Victor Reinz product. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be sold in NZ so Permatex is my only option. |
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Case sealing is imminent. Torque wrenches set, nuts and washers counted. Tightening sequence written on the case. Any tips from those that have done this before ?
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I did a test of Threebond 1104 Neo curing time. I put down six blobs and ran a finger across successive ones at five minute intervals. It cures quite quickly.
I've decided to use Loctite 574 for the case as I will have plenty of time to spread it. I will put a smear of Threebond 1104 Neo on the nose bearing outer edge as it's flexible which is a quality i want in that area. |
Do you need the trick where you slip the O rings over the through bolts using a sharpie cap and some lube? Post 6 in here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-e...6-rebuild.html |
The cure on threebond in open air vs not, would this effect test? Look ready for organized kaos to me.. Remember, if you make a video and excessive screaming and yelling occurs, over dub of soothing classical guitar and subtitles is your friend.
Now is the time folks, reassuring guidance of those with experience insert HERE ... |
Originally Posted by ffc
Do you need the trick where you slip the O rings over the through bolts using a sharpie cap and some lube? Post 6 in here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-e...6-rebuild.html That was a a great thread. Ive bookmarked it :) |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
The cure on threebond in open air vs not, would this effect test? Look ready for organized kaos to me.. Remember, if you make a video and excessive screaming and yelling occurs, over dub of soothing classical guitar and subtitles is your friend.
Now is the time folks, reassuring guidance of those with experience insert HERE ... I will video the procedure. That seems to be a gap in the threads as everyone is too busy at that point. |
Very excited for you and your progress.
A note on through bolt o-rings: "One other note we felt is SUPER important that I think a lot of issues come from is the improper installation of the case through bolt Porsche factory tool or not, it's one of the finer points of this process.o-rings. It is very important to use the Genuine Porsche 000.721.951.10 factory tool to insure proper installation of these o-rings to insure they are not damaged and end up in the right position for a proper seal. It is an odd looking little 2 pc tool that is basically a piece of specific sized tubing with two different id sizes machined in. Then there is a little conical extra piece that helps spread the o-ring to get it to go in properly. It retails for approx. 75.00 from Porsche ($45 from Sunset). I am sure you could make one but in the grand scheme of things it might just best be purchased and used as the factory says. I think many leaks are caused by these o-rings being damaged upon installation. See> http://forums.pelicanparts.com/1777719-post12.html for some info on this tool." I know you have been studying this all very diligently, so you will nail it ! |
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Yes, I have researched that and have a similar solution
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As an aside this is one point I've yet to reconcile.
The WSM states that you shouldn't push the o ring onto the collar. I tested the WSM placing and the results were not consistent in where the O ring ended up. I will place it right on the edge of the collar. BTW the P fix it DVD pushes the O ring right up on the collar, which is effectively where the other one ends up with the cap and tool. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14291854)
Yes, I have researched that and have a similar solution
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Pic
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We did the same thing as cavemen ... We make tools and forge ... I saw where someone made a piston circlip tool from two sizes of copper pipe that seemed to work great ...
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Wow that was intense.
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Congrats on the major milestone. Seams look great to me... Look forward to your "reality vs perception" thoughts on the various steps...
I built my own 6ft reef tank of 1/2" low iron glass and handled 75lb glass panels. Adhesive needed to be applied and panels assembled in less than eight minutes before special adhesive skinned over and would be a FAIL, was intense, perhaps not 25,000 dollar Engine Case intense... Well done! |
Total time elapsed was one hour, of which 12 minutes was getting the halves together. Lessons learned:
1. Three people are better than two when putting the case halves together. Two people on the crankshaft and one to help mesh with the intermediate gear and align the nose bearing with its dowel. Then two to hold the case half while the third person helps clear the chain and rods. We took 12 minutes to get the crankshaft in and case halves together. 2. Prior preparation of as many things as possible is a real timesaver e.g, torque wrenches set, washers coated with 111, and numbers written on the case for the tightening sequence. It also helps to put out all of the nuts and washers to be fitted as you know you are finished when they are all gone. 3. Loctite 574 is a forgiving sealant for first timers as it won't start curing until the case halves are together. If I had used Threebond today I think it would have well and truly skinned before I got it torqued down. 5. A quality artists brush is great for putting the Loctite 574 on. 6. The sharpie cap method for installing o rings needs mods. The cap is quite tight on the stud and the Molykote 111 makes it greasy. A screw into its top makes it easier to pull out. I would now like to make up a better tool to get the o ring off the sharpie. I used cotton buds which worked ok. The plastic tubes were great. Overall a 7 out of 10. I'd be an 8 or 9 on my next go. |
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One thing I noticed with the case back together is how much deeper my flywheel seal is now compared to before. I think my old one had walked out.
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Here is pic of mine. It has 10k miles on it. Note the factory seams squeeze out similar to yours. Wonder if they used 574?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e69ef6cf94.jpg |
Mine seems deeper than yours as well. Hope I haven't overdone it.
Yes, the factory sealant is 574. |
Great stuff, I hope the rugby didn't spoil your day.
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Originally Posted by ffc
Great stuff, I hope the rugby didn't spoil your day.
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Is the idea, seal the case, allow squeeze out, don't touch a thing for how long? When do you spin the crank? Is it recommended to install RMS during assembly vs after case cures?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
Is the idea, seal the case, allow squeeze out, don't touch a thing for how long? When do you spin the crank? Is it recommended to install RMS during assembly vs after case cures?
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Through bolt fastening method - P fix it with a John McM mod (screw in top of the sharpie). Each bolt took less than one minute - I was a machine :)
Btw sorry for the one pic per post but at least it ensures that the sequence order is correct. Place the bolt in from the bottom, hold it with a socket and then place the sharpie cap over the bolt thread and thread the o ring over it. |
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O ring on as far as fingers can thread it.
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Large diameter plastic pipe forces the o ring to the base of the sharpie cap.
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O ring just visible.
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Q tip / cotton bud with the cotton end removed is used to hold the o ring
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Grasp the screw in the top of the sharpie cap while holding the o ring in place with the q tip.
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Lift the sharpie cap away from the bolt end.
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Ready for the next step.
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Use a smaller diameter plastic pipe to push the o ring fully into the channel.
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Place the washer over the bolt end.
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Place the nut over the bolt end
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Torque the nut to 50 Nm while holding the other end still.
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Repeat 12 times more and you get a victory pose as well.
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To celebrate I took the Silver C4 for a drive. Is there any better 964 for these conditions? No there isn't. I love these cars.
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Great work, John!!
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Looks like a well organized assembly line. Your pics also make clear what many have suggested that my through bolt o-rings (5-6 on your case) are probably source of my evasive leak.
On your way to a DRY engine! :burnout: |
With all the forum discussions on through-bolts and o-rings, having done the job yourself was it an intuitive type process and that one can tell the o-rings have seated properly both sides?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14307790)
With all the forum discussions on through-bolts and o-rings, having done the job yourself was it an intuitive type process and that one can tell the o-rings have seated properly both sides?
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Marker numbers removed from the through bolt holes, oil pressure relief valves fitted, sump plug fitted as was the plug next to the oil pressure sensor. Finally I fitted tape to various foreign object attracting orifices. Next up is deglazing the cylinder bores with detergent and a scotchbrite, fitting piston rings, and inserting pistons into cylinders.
BTW I'm not sure what that weird washer was for the oil pressure relief valve. I fitted a normal one to it. |
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Rings installed with fingers (I have the tool but this way felt lower risk). Each ring is clearly marked with 'Top' and the order is clear.
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Pistons installed in cylinders.
I washed the bores with dishwashing liquid and a scotchbrite pad. Then I lubricated the bore and piston walls with running in oil. The reason I wrote on the ring compressor is that it's made for 'normal' cars where the piston is inserted from the top. This means that the side marked 'bottom' is where the compressor compresses the rings most. I want that on the top because I'm inserting the piston from the bottom. I only used hand pressure to push the piston in. |
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Pistons ready for the next step. I am traveling again so I left the oil on the bores. Before I put them on the engine I will wipe as much oil off as possible as I want the rings to bed in.
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Right from the start I believed that the leaks were coming from the Nose bearing AND the Intermediate Shaft cover. Someone had taken to the latter with a ball peen hammer. Covering the area with a sealant revealed where oil was forcing itself out from.
I bought a new cover and received a tip on making the case / cover gap better. It involved using an oil stone. I did that today whilst being extremely careful not to allow metal shavings to enter the cover area. Eventually I will use Threebond 1104 to seal the flange. I can't do it now as there is a measurement to take on chain parallelism when those are installed. |
Is there much prep needed to mate heads to cylinders step coming up? I may in future think about removing cam tower and heads as one unit, to go after through bolt o-rings. Your not machining surfaces, correct?
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
Is there much prep needed to mate heads to cylinders step coming up? I may in future think about removing cam tower and heads as one unit, to go after through bolt o-rings. Your not machining surfaces, correct?
As for disassembly, I would not try to lift the heads and cylinders off together. You are not going to save that much time and the assembly would be heavy and unwieldy. |
Valid point. I'd probably wait until I need head work... Enter slope ... Slippery slope ....
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John,
I am thinking of reworking my ramps around my lift. I just quickly did the 2x4 sandwich approach and notice when I lower car wheels are kind of sticky to the wood and hop as they settle. I don't want that messing with my alignment. Did you frame the long portions in 2x4 and attach plywood to frames? How is the outdoor carpet working out? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14320418)
John,
I am thinking of reworking my ramps around my lift. I just quickly did the 2x4 sandwich approach and notice when I lower car wheels are kind of sticky to the wood and hop as they settle. I don't want that messing with my alignment. Did you frame the long portions in 2x4 and attach plywood to frames? How is the outdoor carpet working out? |
Yes, my wheels (mostly the rears) hop out on the ramps as the full weight comes on them. I don't think it's possible to stop it but I'd be surprised if it changes the alignment.
The carpet struggles to stay in place when just glued down so I used staples as well. It still bunches up a little. I like carpet as a ramp cover in general as I store parts on it but it is marginal in use under the wheels. |
I'll post pics when back at home over the weekend. I put joining supports between the ramps that allow some movement but hold the ramps parallel. I can remove those supports when I want better access. It's an iterative design process. I think I'm close to right, now.
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Ramp
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While John is travelling here are some pics from my ramps. 17mm ply. John followed most of my work with some minor mods.
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I might try your approach. I was thinking where tires rest, could beef up framing in those areas as I have a ton of 2x4's currently in use. How wide did you go? Thanks for the info.
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Size
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14321662)
I might try your approach. I was thinking where tires rest, could beef up framing in those areas as I have a ton of 2x4's currently in use. How wide did you go? Thanks for the info.
Also I have a removable chamfered wood brace at the front that keeps the width, and acts as a tyre bump. |
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Pics - first one is a model I worked off. I used Spokes stepped ramp design rather than this one. The steps are simply layers of plywood with the edges bevelled.
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Detail
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I designed mine to have as few cuts as possible e.g. The plywood sheet was cut in half at the lumber yard and used in that form.
Thoughts: You need a stop at the end of the ramp that is low enough to allow your spoiler to go over it but not so low that the wheels easily run over it putting the car off the end of the ramp. You want the parts to disassemble easily but hold together well when fixed. I have 6 parts; 2 stepped entry ramps, two long ramps and a cross member between the long ramps at each end. The cross members are held in with gate hasps and a similar method for the entry ramps. Everything needs to be tight enough to keep the dimensions intact when using it but not too tight that they can't easily be reassembled. If you don't have cross members, as soon as the car comes down it will push the ramps apart. If you push them too close together it potentially fouls on the lift edges. |
Great pics and ideas, thanks!
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John did add a few nice mods from mine, damn, a new job while waiting for some parts.
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Originally Posted by Spokes
John did add a few nice mods from mine, damn, a new job while waiting for some parts.
The hasps are more about holding things in place in normal working conditions than making it super solid. I found that the cross member holds needed to have latitude for movement otherwise I was repositioning ramps to get the hasps in. The engine drop highlighted one more mod to make. When you want to work on your back under the front of the transmission the cross bar is annoying. I'm making a board which will bridge that bar. |
John,
Will you be replacing all 964-104-115-20 seal rings? Why does PET say 11 through bolts? They all remove from passenger side of engine if left hand drive car, correct? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
John,
Will you be replacing all 964-104-115-20 seal rings? Why does PET say 11 through bolts? They all remove from passenger side of engine if left hand drive car, correct? There are 11 through bolts and 2 fixed studs (next to the flywheel end). The through bolts need two orings on each. The fixed studs need one oring each. Yes, the through bolts are removed from the passenger side of a left hand drive car. |
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Three pistons and cylinders fitted. I used Porsche O-rings smeared with Curil T.
A 23mm Stomski Circlip tool helped with installation. Well worth the money. Corrosion on the old units meant new air guides. I'm getting sick of Magnesium. |
I am seeing a lot of Stompski bling... I'd like one of all his tools...
Did you note during teardown much leakage around head to cylinder interfaces? |
There was some leakage on one cylinder, but my cylinders had been modified to accept a ring and one land was chipped so I think it was due to that more than the old style leakage.
Personally, I think the cylinder head issue is overblown. I'll accept some seepage after reassembly. If it drips I'll go back in and sort it. I doubt it will do the latter as it's combustion products there not oil per se and I expect to use this car for extended periods where the fully warm engine apparently seeps less. As an aside, my Silver C4 leaves a fair few drips but the engine operation is sweet. I cant help feeling that it's best left alone except for the easy fix leaks. |
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More progress. Second set of pistons/cylinders fitted with air guide.
Check all pistons facing the correct way (E) to intake. Remove excess oil from bores (promotes the breaking in process) Smear head stud threads and head stud nut flanges in copper grease, fit heads and install nuts finger tight. Fit knock sensor rails. This is important at this stage as these bridge three cylinders and the hole positions are dependent on the cylinder barrels positions. Tighten the head studs first and you may find that the knock sensor rails won't fit, unless gorilla mechanics get hold of them risking a cross thread, but none of those in my garage :) |
Is the leftmost bolt in second to last pic, is this a thru-bolt stud and same o-ring principle?
The knock bar bolts, what torque did you use? Are those valve springs stock? Did you have any carbon build up on exhaust ports? Try and clean? Great progress ... |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14352563)
Is the leftmost bolt in second to last pic, is this a thru-bolt stud and same o-ring principle?
The knock bar bolts, what torque did you use? Are those valve springs stock? Did you have any carbon build up on exhaust ports? Try and clean? Great progress ... Yes, that's a through bolt, the same principle. 7 ft/lbs (10Nm) for the knock rail. Valve springs are stock as far as I know. General carbon build up on the heads. I cleaned it as best I could but didn't do extreme. Tonight I will tighten the head studs. Fingers crossed nothing goes 'snap':crying: |
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Photo says it all. The torque wrench with the correct range (15Nm) is 1/4" but the 12 point tool is 1/2". I need to buy a step up adapter to correctly torque my head stud nuts
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New cylinder head temp sensor fitted. One of those situations where I would need a special tool to be able to apply the correct torque. I just tightened it to what I felt was appropriate. When the cable is routed it can't turn to unloosen anyway.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14354728)
New cylinder head temp sensor fitted. One of those situations where I would need a special tool to be able to apply the correct torque. I just tightened it to what I felt was appropriate. When the cable is routed it can't turn to unloosen anyway.
Or were you referring to a special torque wrench. |
Originally Posted by Super90
I bought a deep socket (14mm??) and took a Dremel tool and cut a channel down the side for the cable to exit. Then torqued to spec.
Or were you referring to a special torque wrench. |
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Step up adapter sourced. 1/4" to 3/8" and 3/8 to 1/2".
Torque cam carrier nuts to 15 Nm. Torque head studs to 15 Nm then turn 90 degrees. |
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After the head studs are tightened, remove the cam carrier, clean with rubbing alcohol and coat with Loctite 574.
Take the oil return tubes and place orings on each end coated with Dow 111. Use a piece of wood to put one end of the oil return tubes in the case opening. Place the cam carrier over the studs while lining up the other end of the oil return tubes. Use a rubber mallet to persuade the cam carrier into place. Place all fasteners with washers on the cam carrier. Tighten to 15Nm moving from the middle outwards. Put assembly grease on the Cams and insert. This is to make sure they rotate freely. If they don't then loosen cam carrier fasteners and re torque. |
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Next up is the timing chain cover. Fit the gasket dry and torque the nuts to 25 Nm
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The chain ramps are fitted after the covers are in. Each is held in with a pin. Torque to 31 Nm. NB while the previous builder had used Loctite 574 on these I figured the Aluminium washer was enough so installed them dry.
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Insert cams greased with assembly lube then fit the gasket and sealing plate / o ring.
As I'm finding, there is no consistency with engine builders choice of sealants e.g. the previous builder used Loctite 574 on the gasket and nothing on the o ring whereas Wayne's rebuild book uses Curil T on the gasket and o ring. I decided to follow the P fix it DVD with a dry gasket and Dow 111 on the o ring. Progressively tighten the three bolts to get the o ring to seat evenly then apply a final torque of 10 Nm. |
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The oil bridge is simple. More Dow 111 on the three o rings (2 thick ones on the insert and one thin one on the timing chain cover) , push the insert into place, then the bridge and tighten to 10 Nm
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Valve covers on just for protection. It's starting to look like an engine again.
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Looking good, John !!!
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+1 .... Making it look easy ... Did you document for rocker installation, original rocker pin locations? Did you opt to use RS rocker seals or not? Cam timings next, great progress...
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Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14361142)
+1 .... Making it look easy ... Did you document for rocker installation, original rocker pin locations? Did you opt to use RS rocker seals or not? Cam timings next, great progress...
I'm so glad I checked the timing before disassembling the motor. It's a sanity check that it has normal cams etc and I wont get any surprise results. Famous last words! |
I did same before removing chains to get readings... My left cam was 1.39? and right was 1.28 kind of thing.. I set both to 1.26 with spreader and checked again with tensioners installed. I did not bleed tensioners for that exercise, don't know if that would matter.
My question on rocker install was to know if the rocker thru bolt can be improperly installed off center or do they fit only one way left to right for each rocker before tightened? |
Originally Posted by C4inLA
I did same before removing chains to get readings... My left cam was 1.39? and right was 1.28 kind of thing.. I set both to 1.26 with spreader and checked again with tensioners installed. I did not bleed tensioners for that exercise, don't know if that would matter.
My question on rocker install was to know if the rocker thru bolt can be improperly installed off center or do they fit only one way left to right for each rocker before tightened? |
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Checking chain parallelism.
Set pulley to Z1 lining it up with the case seam. Insert washer with the bevel side facing the cylinder. Add shims (2 in my case). Rotate both cams until the key slots are facing up. Insert woodruff keys in the slots. Insert internal sprockets over keys. Place sprockets and chains on cams. Insert dowels into the holes where they best fit (use spark plug thread to hold the dowels). Insert bolts and tighten to 30Nm using the special tool. NB That is a temporary torque setting. Test the chain parallelism as per manual. |
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With the chain parallelism checked it's time to fit the intermediate shaft cover
A thick layer of Dow 111 on the o ring and the flange. Torque bolts to 10Nm. A nice flush fit compared to the old ball peened Ill fitting cover I started with. This was the source of one of my leaks. |
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Time for the pulley.
Clean the crankshaft taper and pulley area with rubbing alcohol. Smear light oil on the pulley bolt. Hold with the special tool and torque to 235Nm. Yes that's correct. |
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Install tappets/followers on cylinders 1 & 4. Torque to 20 Nm.
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Adjust intake valve clearance on cylinder one to 0.1mm with the Kirk tool
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Cams timed. It took a lot longer than I thought as I failed to position the cams in the correct position as the markings were indistinct.
Cam bolts torqued to 110 Nm. The other nuts were 10 Nm. |
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Followers/tappets installed on one side. An interesting point I picked up from Wayne's book is that the flange thickness is different depending on the position. As the follower shaft is shorter than the total width you change the depth of the shaft depending on the flange width.
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Great stuff...
What you observed answered much of my question on rocker installation... I was watching a yt video of an older engine being assembled and he mentioned that each rocker shaft should be centered to rocker and not aligned based on the edge of casing... I will have to check my cam pics, but I am not sure I had all those punch marks on end of cam, think I only had one per cam ... |
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You've got it but I'll add a few more pics.
The rockers are done in sequence, 1,2,3 & 4,5,6. The rocker shafts are inserted without the bolts and nuts. The rocker shafts are inserted at a depth that ensures they are centred on the opening. This means that their position relative to the flanges differs. If you put them all next to the flange edge some will be off centre. The bolts and nuts are inserted after the follower and shaft are positioned. The bolt and nuts are torqued to 20Nm. Always tighten with the small hex nut. |
Check, Checkmate! Hope all the noobies like me are paying attention :typing:
For your cam timing, spreader and 1.26mm ? How were your cam settings before disassembly? |
Cam settings were perfect prior to disassembly. In hindsight I should have marked the cam tops at that stage as I knew it was right. My left cam has a clear white dot which I failed to put exactly at the top. The right cam has no similar dot. By the time you get to timing, the cams are nicely sealed. I didn't want to reverse that and pull them out. Lesson learned.
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Pic of incorrect follower shaft position.
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Chain timing cover. So many places to leak.
Lots of Dow 111 should sort it out. 6Nm of torque on the nuts. A good squeeze out gives me confidence I've done the best I could to avoid leaks. |
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1-6-2-4-3-5 is etched in my brain. Valves adjusted, power steering pump fitted and right hand timing chain cover fitted.
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Power steering pump covers on
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Large oil line connected and heat exchangers on. Copper grease and all new fasteners. NB: I decided not to take a grinder to the joint between the right and left exchangers as the unit comes off easily as a whole.
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Engine shroud in place. Intake gaskets coated with Dow 111 and fitted.
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Time for a break from engine building and actually have a drive.
I spent last weekend with up to seven other Porsches, and we ripped through 900km of NZ's great back roads. The Silver C4 was faultless. Next weekend we fly back to where we left the cars and will do another 1,100km. Life is good. |
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Back to engine building. Fuel injectors and rails fitted. Intake plenums cleaned and fitted. Distributors fitted and ignition wires routed.
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A short video of the roads we drove last weekend. Not my footage as my Go Pro had incorrect settings.
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You chaps in NZ are living right. Clearly you're in need of massive population growth of both human and farm animals.... I haven't enjoyed roads that empty around SoCal in decades...
Curious, what octane are you running in NZ Pcars and may I ask price per gallon? Cheers! |
A US gallon of RON 95 costs USD 5.70 in NZ. My mileage for the trip was 28.7 miles per US gallon. I was impressed as we weren't trying to be frugal.
As for driving conditions, we only have 4.5 million people for a land mass the size of the UK. As it's an agricultural country there are roads everywhere to service farms and they often have lots of corners. Get up early enough and you have the road largely to yourself e.g. We drove 110 miles through a gorge and only encountered one car going the same way. Mind you we started out at 6:30 am. |
RON 95, we only dream about it .... That will make an engine happy... RON 91 is the norm and I personally have never seen RON 93 offered at service stations ... 91 is usd $3.00 per gallon right now, trending up ....
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Last year, a fellow Rennlister and I hatched a plan to make a set of bespoke valve covers for my car. Well actually I had the idea and he had all of the skills to make it happen. He put the design in solid works and arranged a CNC shop to make the prototypes. However, it took so long to get them done that I fitted my OE covers. Now the engine is out we're back into it. The covers need to be re machined but I think the next ones will be the production version.
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Since I'm waiting on the new valve covers I've loose fitted parts to the engine to reduce the required storage area. Looks like a real engine now. It's come a long way in the last few weeks.
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John, I continue to enjoy your progress with the engine. It's one more piece of inspiration for when I (eventually) get a lift in my garage.
Originally Posted by C4inLA
(Post 14381167)
RON 95, we only dream about it .... That will make an engine happy... RON 91 is the norm and I personally have never seen RON 93 offered at service stations ... 91 is usd $3.00 per gallon right now, trending up ....
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Thanks Deserion for the chemistry lesson, good info ....
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Playing with the seats tonight. Unfortunately it appears I have lost a small drive shaft on each of the recovered seats so I can't fit them back in the Silver car.
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1,100 mile road trip completed. There is no other car I would consider for this than a C4.
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A post road trip check revealed a torn outer front right CV boot. Unfortunately the 460 Nm torque on the axle nut was too much for my 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch adapter. Time to go 3/4" all the way.
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My Silver C4 interior was linen and mostly vinyl. Now the seats are all Black nappa leather, front and rear. Today I finally received the rears. Here they are pictured next to the vinyl ones from my other C4.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14436667)
A post road trip check revealed a torn outer front right CV boot. Unfortunately the 460 Nm torque on the axle nut was too much for my 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch adapter. Time to go 3/4" all the way.
My set-up goes from 1/2 to 3/4 and looks like this. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9d0a36b8f0.jpg |
I have a torque multiplier but just added a 500Nm torque wrench to my tools. It was the torque wrench that monstered the adapter. Looking on line there is a good reason my torque wrench is 3/4" for that torque range. I simply overloaded a 1/2" tool.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14437322)
I have a torque multiplier but just added a 500Nm torque wrench to my tools. It was the torque wrench that monstered the adapter. Looking on line there is a good reason my torque wrench is 3/4" for that torque range. I simply overloaded a 1/2" tool.
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Originally Posted by ffc
You must be much stronger than me! I would need a very long extension on a torque wrench to get to 340lbs (or some help)|
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New 3/4" tools arrived. I'll tackle the driveshafts on the weekend. Any tips out there for C4 front drive shafts?
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The CV joint job is finished, hopefully.
I used the method that disconnects the strut from the top mount point. I won't repeat what's in other threads except to note the following I wish I'd known 1. The front axle nut needs a 3/4" socket and wrench. The torque setting of 330 ft lbs exceeds 1/2" specs so tools with that size are likely to break. Ask me how I know! 2. After you have undone the circlip the joint is able to be pulled off. In my case the puller took the joint outer off, not the core, so it all fell apart. I'd like to see what technique people use to get a puller around the joint outer to hook the core. 3. The grease used in CV joints is beyond messy. It gets everywhere. 4. If your joint disassembles, watch a video on reassembling it before you attempt it. I used the method posted by a 996 owner. I have no idea how some do this while the driveshaft is on the car. 5. The CV boot clamp join position must not coincide with a bolt position, otherwise it's hard to get the bolt on. 6. Be very careful tightening the driveshaft flange bolts. Get the tool fully inserted and square. You don't want to round out the bolt otherwise you will need a dremel to cut the bolt head off. The torque is 32ft lbs. 7. The front and rear CV inners on a C4 are not the same part. I now have two rears as spares :/ 8. The front and rear axle nuts on a C4 are not the same. The rears are inexpensive, the fronts aren't. One of mine is not holding the full torque so I'll replace it. 9. There is no aftermarket CV joint for the front inner on a C4. The Porsche part is so expensive that you might as well buy an entire driveshaft. |
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And the excessive packing award goes the seller that packaged two seat driveshafts (in the image) in a box big enough to take a flywheel.
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I watched this video
In my search I found these which I hope will both store touch up paint and apply it. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14474252)
I watched this video https://youtu.be/Uz-zW-cLdUs and searched the net for a supplier of the tool.
In my search I found these which I hope will both store touch up paint and apply it. Judging by how fine the tip is I'm sure it will need to be flushed immediately after use to prevent plugging but should be reusable otherwise. Edit: I just bought the Leow Cornell tool and wil give it a shot. It adds the same amount as a toothpick but doesn't require paint refills which is a plus! |
Originally Posted by Marine Blue
John please let us know what you think of this applicator. I currently use the toothpick method but I am always open to trying different products that could do a better job.
Judging by how fine the tip is I'm sure it will need to be flushed immediately after use to prevent plugging but should be reusable otherwise. I bought fine and standard versions as I'm not sure how paint will flow through them. |
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Another purchase was pre cat flanges from Bisimoto. I suspect these are made to help repair rusted out exhausts. My use is different. These will be the flanges anchoring a modified cat bypass with a cut off valve. I will hopefully be able to run a normal exhaust most of the time but change to full noise at the push of a button
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This appears to be the tool for CV joint removal. The only problem is that it's designed for an outer CV joint and uses the driveshaft and axle nut to pull it. That won't work with an inner.
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New front driveshaft has arrived. A relative bargain considering it's Porsche original. Plus a couple of front axle nuts.
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David Burggraaf (Rennlist handle Maxem) has delivered his second pre production billet 964 Valve covers. Still a few items to add like wire clip studs in the final version but this lot are going on my car as is to test them. Time to seal up my engine.
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Red valve covers
Hi John. In post 825 there are 2 bright shiny red valve covers sitting on the bench in the background. In this post you're comparing the new covers to what look like dull red covers which I assumed were on the engine previously. Has the engine been run and taken the 'shiny' off? Just wondering what might have happened to valve cover coating.
Cheers, Dan |
Originally Posted by dlpalumbo
(Post 14507655)
Hi John. In post 825 there are 2 bright shiny red valve covers sitting on the bench in the background. In this post you're comparing the new covers to what look like dull red covers which I assumed were on the engine previously. Has the engine been run and taken the 'shiny' off? Just wondering what might have happened to valve cover coating.
Cheers, Dan The red powder coating has always been a dull matte finish. I think it looks even moreso under the light I used for the later photos. I’m thinking about what finish to use on the billet covers and may go for an anodised coating this time. The reality is that past the initial show photos these live in a dirty environment so a muted colour scheme works best. |
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Final check of valve timing. Carefully fit the plugs, then new valve covers. Finally make sure the plug wires are well connected.
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Very nice John !!
My engine is close behind. Should be working on the install in another week or two. R. |
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Fan belt installed. The hex head bolt is only torqued to 10 Nm.
Krikit tool allows belt tension measurement. 25kg is correct for a cold used belt. |
Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14509000)
Very nice John !!
My engine is close behind. Should be working on the install in another week or two. R. |
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More parts have arrived. A new spoiler wall for the Silver car and a set of front diff driveshaft seals for both cars.
Before I reinstall the engine and transmission on the White car I'm going to replace one front driveshaft and replace all three diff seals and the diff mount rubber as there will never be an easier time to do it. |
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Many months of work and now the self doubt sets in. Did I tighten every bolt. Will it leak? Is the timing correct. Unfortunately I won't find out for a month as I have to travel for work.
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Nice work, hopefully it will be back in the car in time to enjoy the summer.
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Originally Posted by ffc
(Post 14513110)
Nice work, hopefully it will be back in the car in time to enjoy the summer.
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Congrats on hitting the next big milestone !!
Looks great. Yes, I feel the anxiety of the install and the first turn of the key... |
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My front left axle nut didn't seem to be accepting the full 339 ft lb of torque so I ordered a new nut.
When I removed the nut I couldn't see anything obviously wrong with the shaft thread or the nut so I refitted it and managed to get it torqued correctly this time. Weird. The other thing I noticed is that the new and old nuts are different lengths. While the new nut has a lock feature it looks a bit flimsy to take the full torque. Maybe it's just my lack of engineering knowledge. |
Originally Posted by John McM
Fan belt installed. The hex head bolt is only torqued to 10 Nm.
Krikit tool allows belt tension measurement. 25kg is correct for a cold used belt. In your photo you would be less than 15kg. If the instructions are wrong and you are supposed to read the gauge from the bottom of the black needle and your are at 25kg then my other thread was a total waste of time because my alt belt tension is correct. |
Heck, just watched a video and you are correct. I’ll go back and re-do it. Thanks.
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Bummer. I was hoping I was doing it wrong.
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It probably doesn't matter one bit, John, and if I we're not right there doing the same thing I wouldn't have noticed....
On my car, the cylinder temp sensor plug is above the flywheel sensor plug. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0f36819500.jpg |
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Originally Posted by Super90
It probably doesn't matter one bit, John, and if I we're not right there doing the same thing I wouldn't have noticed....
On my car, the cylinder temp sensor plug is above the flywheel sensor plug. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0f36819500.jpg |
John, I take it all back !
My car had them reversed !!! Wonder who did that?! I'm looking in the FSM and the crank sensor is above the cylinder head temperature sensor. This is on page 10-103. Sorry. One more thing some mechanic did in the previous years this car was serviced... |
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This is the WSM
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Originally Posted by Super90
John, I take it all back !
My car had them reversed !!! Wonder who did that?! I'm looking in the FSM and the crank sensor is above the cylinder head temperature sensor. This is on page 10-103. Sorry. One more thing some mechanic did in the previous years this car was serviced... I'd rather have what I'm doing challenged than make a critical error. BTW: I think we need to start a P fix it errata thread. The power steering pump PM along with questions over torque values need to be recorded somewhere. |
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I have a manic work travel schedule so won’t be in the same country as the cars until early November. I still manage to pick up parts though and this is my latest addition, a seat leather refurb kit made up by a New Zealand Company (no use to anyone outside NZ as these chemicals can’t be air freighted)
The idea is that I remove most of the leather dye on the seat faces then resurface them with the dye and sealer in this kit. The dye is colour matched to my seats. It seems easy enough. Famous last words. |
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It's been a Pigeon/Statue couple of days and I've been the Pigeon.
First up was another torn front inner CV boot. As much as I tried to keep the joint together I couldn't and ended up with another jigsaw puzzle. It was just as messy and time consuming as the last one. |
God bless you John !
I hate doing CV's so I just had the shop do mine while they were out of the car. |
Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14586362)
God bless you John !
I hate doing CV's so I just had the shop do mine while they were out of the car. |
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The CVs were only the start of my problems. I wanted to change the front diff fluid. In theory it’s easy enough; undo the fill plug, undo the drain plug then drain the fluid and replace. What could go wrong?
The plugs came off easily enough and I measured the fluid that came out at 1 litre. I read a thread on how to refill it and thought I could do something smarter. I filled a 1 litre squeeze bottle with fluid, attached a plastic hose to it, got under the car, lifted the bottle higher than the inlet and started to squeeze. It was getting harder and harder to squeeze so I gave it a really good go.....boom. The plastic hose came off and all of the fluid in it squirted over my T shirt. Meanwhile I was still squeezing the bottle and the nozzle sprayed fluid over my face and shoulder. I was a mess, had lost count of how much fluid had actually gone in, so had to do smaller amounts until it overflowed. What I had forgotten is that the bottle needed air coming into replace the fluid going out. A basic error. Next time i’ll work out how to allow air into the bottle before I risk another golden shower. |
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With the diff fluid changed I decided to replace the rubber diff mount. Again it was relatively simple in theory. Three bolts and bit of man handling. The part came out easily and I compared old and new. The old one was clearly in great shape so I refitted it.
The two outer screws went in easily but the large middle one was way off. It took me 45 minutes to work out that the diff had moved because the torque tube was floating free with no transmission tied to it. I went to the back of the car, pushed the torque tube forward, then did up the bolt. Then I realised that I will likely have to adjust it again when I install the engine as I’ve now changed the diff position which changes the torque tube position. I should have stayed in bed. |
Pain
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14586513)
With the diff fluid changed I decided to replace the rubber diff mount. Again it was relatively simple in theory. Three bolts and bit of man handling. The part came out easily and I compared old and new. The old one was clearly in great shape so I refitted it.
The two outer screws went in easily but the large middle one was way off. It took me 45 minutes to work out that the diff had moved because the torque tube was floating free with no transmission tied to it. I went to the back of the car, pushed the torque tube forward, then did up the bolt. Then I realised that I will likely have to adjust it again when I install the engine as I’ve now changed the diff position which changes the torque tube position. I should have stayed in bed. |
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One thing that really bugs me with older cars is the likelihood that a gorilla has been there before me. You know their work when you see it; the impossibly tight fasteners, rounded off bolt heads, incorrect parts etc.
My first engine drop had me swearing as I hacksawed heads off rounded out driveshaft Allen hex heads. While I now have a Dremel to deal with those the best policy is prevention so I've always been careful with the driveshaft bolts, but never had the perfect tool, until now. One of the issues with the driveshaft bolts is that the CV boot rubber encroaching on access to the bolt head means the tool has to be thin, but it also needs to be usable with a torque wrench which has limited room to move as well. Ricardo D designed this tool for the job and today I manufactured it. It's so simple. A 6mm Allen key cut down to the exact right length, which fits in a 6mm socket. Brilliant. Torque to 30ft/lbs and rest easy knowing you’re unlikely to have rounded out the heads. |
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It seems typical pre road/track trip to find car issues. I knew my cooling fan had a ‘ting’ noise but it was worse than I thought.
A mark on the shroud, and it was clear that both alternator and fan bearings were gone. If you’re a take it in to the mechanic type of person you could be up for more than $$$$ with labour fitting a new fan and alternator, but assuming it’s just bearings the DIY cost is more like $$. While I have the bearings in my stash I don’t have the time before the trip to fit them so I broke my rule and swiped the one out of the White C4. This is a slippery slope. |
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I transferred the Fuchs from the White C4 to the Silver C4 so I can finish the tyres off on the upcoming trip. I’m liking the look.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14598250)
I transferred the Fuchs from the White C4 to the Silver C4 so I can finish the tyres off on the upcoming trip. I’m liking the look.
Pete |
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I had ‘fun’ getting the correct tension on the belts so reverted to the manual to make sure I had the right number of shims. There were four of the fan shims and four of the alternator shims on the car, which matched picture in the catalogue but the parts list has 6 of each shim. Which is correct?
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These are the instructions in the workshop manual
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John,
My car has four shims in each set. In order to get proper tension with new belts, I have all four in between the pulley halves in each case. Hope this helps, R. |
Originally Posted by Super90
John,
My car has four shims in each set. In order to get proper tension with new belts, I have all four in between the pulley halves in each case. Hope this helps, R. |
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Engine off the yoke and lowered onto a small ATV lift using an engine crane. It's at this time that I really wished I had bought a strong hydraulic table lift as it's a nervous moment having a $$$$ engine hanging in the air. In any case it went smoothly and it's not that often I do this.
With the engine off the yoke I fitted the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. The flywheel bolts were new and torqued to 90Nm. The pressure plate bolts were re-used and torqued to 24Nm. NB: I had completely forgotten to re-face the flywheel and pressure plate. Rather than wait longer to sort it, I just gave them a light sand and clean. The clutch was fine before the reseal so no need to fret over perfection. Next up is mating the engine and transmission. |
Looking good John !!
Don't forget those tips I forwarded that I learned from my mechanic before mating the transmission. No way to prove it, but based on how smoothly mine went together, I am a believer in their benefit. |
Originally Posted by Super90
(Post 14606708)
Looking good John !!
Don't forget those tips I forwarded that I learned from my mechanic before mating the transmission. No way to prove it, but based on how smoothly mine went together, I am a believer in their benefit. I spent time last night cleaning the clutch fork bearing and shaft. I have a spare end bearing if I have an accident. I managed it last time. Maybe that was beginners luck? |
I'm sure it will be done in 15 minutes with you turning the wrenches !
R. |
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...117898ff0.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ff70270f4.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2452e8d95.jpeg Breakfast time https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...db77c2c02.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8d1a814db.jpeg A break from the garage. It’s road trip and track day time. |
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d0529ea03.jpeg
Light track work. Road tyres, pads and normal fluid. |
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cb0cfb0bb.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3b7a4096f.jpeg Mt Ruapehu in the central North Island of New Zealand. My 900 mile round trip was completed with two (very light) track visits. Faultless operation and a big smile on my dial, albeit a few more stone chips. That makes about 3,000 miles of spirited driving and only two reported puffs of smoke. I’m conflicted here as surely an engine with 145,000 miles needs a top end rebuild soon, but the advice from an experienced mechanic is leave it alone until it smokes. If I can’t justify rebuilding it I’m going to sell it....some day soon. |
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My son didn't volunteer to help after the last engine/transmission mating effort so I had to work smarter. The engine crane and adjusting bar made it so simple to get the alignment that I had it done first go.
The clutch fork was a little bit more problematic. I inserted the shaft only to find out that the throw out bearing had moved and one of the fork arms wasn't correctly seated. I carefully removed the shaft and it went in properly on the next go. Starter motor fitted and the assembly put under the car. As I've said many times, the lift makes this job so much easier that I'm looking forward to the next step. |
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Fork correctly seated. A worthwhile check as I would have had to re-pull the engine to fix the original misalignment.
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I sacrificed a 1mm feeler gauge by bending it to allow setting the correct crank sensor gap
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https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a667434e5.jpeg
The Engine and box are back where they belong. I expect to complete the install tomorrow along with a 13 point bleed. I’ve borrowed a PT999 to bleed the diff locks. |
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The physical fitting of the engine and transmission is the easy part. There's a lot of other parts to reconnect, especially on RHD C4.
One of the biggest pains is the clutch line. In the RHD C4, the line crosses under the transmission. If you are very careful you can leave this in place when you remove the engine/transmission. However, hit it and break the pipe and you will have fun replacing it. I chose to disconnect it and got a run of brake fluid while I reconnected it. |
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Another fun task is the longitudinal slave cylinder. You need to compress the plunger enough to push the cylinder in and insert the holding key. The plunger wouldn't compress enough unless I opened the bleed valve. Oh well, I knew it needed a full bleed anyway.
Has anyone found a supplier of 7mm flare wrenches? |
Congrats on getting the engine and trans back in !!! Big step.
I have to say, it was a lot of effort to get my trans mount bolts in, though mine is a C2. I was on my back pushing with my feet while the missus started and tightened all the bolts by hand. I couldn't get it done by myself. I had the engine mount bolts in, but loose. Still, no joy. Maybe there is a trick to that, but I couldn't figure anything out at the time. And yes, it's exciting to get the engine and transmission bolted up, and then you realize, "Now I have all these other connections to take care of !!". |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14628040)
Another fun task is the longitudinal slave cylinder. You need to compress the plunger enough to push the cylinder in and insert the holding key. The plunger wouldn't compress enough unless I opened the bleed valve. Oh well, I knew it needed a full bleed anyway.
Has anyone found a supplier of 7mm flare wrenches? |
Originally Posted by Richard H
Britool do one 7 x 9 E112301B
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Twin clamp sleeve assembly like a pro.
I used two new bolts so the heads were pristine. Place transmission in neutral. Find a couple of friends. Station one at each front wheel. You go under the car with the correct Allen key attached to a torque wrench set at 75Nm. Have one friend hold his/her front wheel still. Ask the other friend to slightly turn his/her wheel which will turn the prop shaft with the sleeve on it. Slide the clamping sleeve rearward when the splines align with the rear shaft splines. The final sleeve position you need it is where the bolt holes line up with the channels in the shaft. If you don't do this you can't insert the bolts as they hit the splines. Have your team hold one wheel and turn the other one until the shaft rotates into a position where you can insert the first bolt. Torque to 75Nm. Have the team repeat the turning until the other bolt hole appears. Insert the second bolt and torque to 75Nm. Place the plastic and rubber covers over the access holes. It's very easy if you follow this procedure. There is nothing to man-handle. BTW: Nice engineering from Porsche to have a design where the bolts loosening are unlikely to allow the shaft to separate as the splines will hit the bolts before they do that. |
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Power steering banjo bolt. Two new copper washers. Torque to 30Nm.
Just for fun, I took the advice to anneal the washers first. Heat the washers cherry red and let them cool naturally. It's supposed to make them softer so they seal better. NB: I’ve edited the above text. I mistakenly cooled the washers in water. That is NOT the correct way to anneal / soften copper washers. |
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Next up is completing a full brake and clutch fluid flush. I'm using a fluid similar to the existing one so the colour change method of knowing when I have removed the old fluid won't work.
Instead I'm going to do it by volume. The shop manual specifies the bleed quantities: - 250 cc at each wheel, bleeding both nipples. - 50-100cc at the clutch slave cylinder. - 250-300cc at the Lateral PDAS lock (side of differential) and - 200 cc at the Axial (longitudinal) PDAS lock (front of transaxle) I have marked up my motive bottles to measure the amount of fluid removed. |
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13 point bleed completed. The only annoyance is that the PDT999 would not connect to PDAS so I had to bleed the diff locks via the console switch. In total I used just short of two litres for the full flush. As much as I liked the Castrol SRF I downgraded the new fluid to Motul RBF600 as it meets my likely needs at a much lower cost. If I had a C2 with only one litre I probably would have stuck with SRF which has a far higher wet boiling point, which is what you need at the track to help prevent brake fade.
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With the bleed finished, I fitted the rear ARB, central tunnel cover and front cover, put the Cup1s back on and lowered the car down to the ground. I have a few things to do yet, like the throttle linkage then it's ready to fire up. Before I do that I want to put the Silver car up on to lift to find the source of a clicking in the front left suspension. This is never ending :)
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14630217)
Heat the washers cherry red and quench them in cold water. It's supposed to make them softer so they seal better. Are you sure you have that right John? My understanding is that to anneal you must cool slowly in the cooling quickly will temper. Pete |
Originally Posted by Peteinjp
(Post 14638169)
Are you sure you have that right John? My understanding is that to anneal you must cool slowly in the cooling quickly will temper.
Pete |
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...43771f5f4.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2422db35b.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5dc2902eb.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...11c5069db.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b0223a62a.jpeg The Silver car'Â’s cooling fan was hitting the fan shroud due to a badly worn hub bearing. I carefully removed the old bearing (it took a few hits with a copper hammer but was ok as long as I supported the fan around the bearing area), then took the fan and shroud to a powder coater I trust. The Silver colour was the closest they had to the factory fan colour so I chose that. A new hub bearing was inserted using a small plastic hammer while I held the fan in one hand. Then it was all reinstalled. No rubbing! Before https://youtu.be/dkgaYx08pB0 After https://youtu.be/NXwsob-lhCY Cost was $130 for the bearing and $65 for the powder coating. |
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Trial fit of the original tail with a spoiler grille I bought off a local. I will need to read the manual as I can't get it sitting right.
Unfortunately I don't have the mechanism to lift it at speed so it will be a fixed tail. It should be fine at the speeds I drive at. |
John, who was the powdercoater?
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Originally Posted by Pel
John, who was the powdercoater?
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I ordered a leather refurb kit where the colour coat fluid unexpectedly has an expiry date so I had to reprioritise work and do the recolour.
The sequence is leather cleaner, leather prep (takes off any sealer and a few layers of colour), spray colour then sealer and finally conditioner and protector. The colour is not an exact match to the vinyl but I'm very happy with the outcome. |
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With the seats done, I finally installed the rear interior in the Silver car. It fitted very nicely.
Before and after pics |
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The 993 brake reservoir cap and overflow blanking plug arrived. No more need to put a clamp on the overflow when bleeding the brakes
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Post number 900 and it’s evident I’m still on a learning curve. When I did my suspension replacement I figured the top mounts were in good condition so refitted them. A false economy. Back in I go.
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Spoiler wall replacement. This is not the Porsche branded one, its one half the price from Pelican parts.
I was expecting a 15 minute job but it became 45 minutes because the top of the wall would not clip into the spoiler without some problem solving. In the end I removed the spoiler (four hex head bolts), used a heat gun to soften the clip end of the wall, then pushed it onto the spoiler with a screwdriver. I then reattached the spoiler and clipped the wall's lower portion to the frame and tested it. All good now, It's not going anywhere now it's cooled. |
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While I was changing the spoiler wall I decided to check the spoiler micoswitches to see if they were causing my constant spoiler alarms.
They tested fine and are working as designed but I noticed my symptoms are most likely due to a loose connection in the system, as the alarm happens when braking. Has anyone found loose connections causing spoiler alarms or even faulty clock soldering causing spoiler alarms? |
The best Christmas present ever. The rebuilt engine runs!
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14690327)
The best Christmas present ever. The rebuilt engine runs! https://youtu.be/KcP9FwBFBh8
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Originally Posted by John McM
The best Christmas present ever. The rebuilt engine runs!
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i'm a complete porsche noob, but i have a stupid question... they put the alternator inside of the fan that pulls air through the engine? frickin cool, if so.
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Originally Posted by roastbeef
(Post 14690568)
i'm a complete porsche noob, but i have a stupid question... they put the alternator inside of the fan that pulls air through the engine? frickin cool, if so.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14690327)
The best Christmas present ever. The rebuilt engine runs! https://youtu.be/KcP9FwBFBh8
Pete |
Congrats!!! :D
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Nice one john! Clean engine bay goals!
Happy Christmas! |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14690327)
The best Christmas present ever. The rebuilt engine runs! https://youtu.be/KcP9FwBFBh8
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Thanks everyone. As soon as the neighbours go on holiday/vacation, I will do the 20 minute run at 2,000 rpm, then do the first oil change and check for leaks etc. I'm still on a high that it started. When you build your first ever engine of any type and it's a 911 you have massive doubts. We had fire extinguishers at the ready.
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With the White Car waiting for its engine run, I returned to the Silver car to finish the interior.
The biggest job was the seats. I had to take some surface rust out of the rails that had been sitting in water when the interior was water logged from the sun roof drains so I removed them and put everything in a plastic bag before the seats were sent off for recovering. The only problem there was I didn't take good enough pictures. Luckily my other car has exactly the same seat so I put them side by side and assembled the seats correctly. Some parts on the seats were missing e.g. The plastic bush shaft holder, but that seems ok without it. The cable plug on the other wasn't ok if broken and I had to scavenge two good ones from the White car. These are a ridiculous price to replace e.g. USD 44 for the whole plug assembly. It's part number 911-612-113-05. I will check my local used parts supplier in the coming months. |
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Before I installed the seats, I decided to change out the spoiler controller, just in case it was the cause of my constant spoiler alarms. It looked the worse for wear as it was close to the water line in the interior.
Unfortunately my replacement unit is the newer version so I lose the opportunity to play with the extend and retract speeds. I'll report whether it works when I get the suspension top mount sorted. Adrian says the newer unit won't work on 89/90 models whereas Porsche say it will. The 90 model has two spoiler parts, the large controller box and and a seperate override relay that extends the spoiler at 72mph (115km/hr) if the controller fails. I opened the latter to see what was in there. Not much by the look of it, and certainly nothing movable, which is why I suspect the controller box with its relays is the source of my alarm problems. |
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With the spoiler controller and relay reinstalled it was time for the seats.
After the rush of the engine restart, I didn't expect this to be anywhere near as exciting, but I'm gobsmacked. How in the heck I managed to do this as my first ever interior is beyond me. Hats off to the upholsterers who recovered the seats etc, but the real impact was from choosing Lakewell as a supplier (no affiliation). The carpet kit, door cards, leather seat covers and the vinyl kits for the door jambs and rear panels were such good quality that I look at it as factory fresh. I still have a couple of small items to sort out. The handbrake tip is scuffed and the plastic seat hinge panels need to be painted. I’m not paying USD 60 per piece, but will search for some used ones in Black. |
You must be very excited! I just added a set of 964 sport seats to my interior that have only 30,000km’s on them and at 100,000kms the rest of the interior still cleans up nicely. As great as the 964 looks from the outside it’s matched equally with the tight, comfortable and purposeful cabin. Sometimes it’s nice just to hop in and shut the door- you must be itching to get it on the road. With winter here in Japan it’ll be a while before I’ll have that chance.
How long have have you had the car down for now? Looks great! |
Originally Posted by Peteinjp
(Post 14693537)
You must be very excited! I just added a set of 964 sport seats to my interior that have only 30,000km’s on them and at 100,000kms the rest of the interior still cleans up nicely. As great as the 964 looks from the outside it’s matched equally with the tight, comfortable and purposeful cabin. Sometimes it’s nice just to hop in and shut the door- you must be itching to get it on the road. With winter here in Japan it’ll be a while before I’ll have that chance.
How long have have you had the car down for now? Looks great! i’ve had one car for 5 years and the other for 18 months. I love 964s. Btw enjoy those sports seats. I had them in my Turbo 3.6. Hands down the best seats I’ve ever had |
Looking good!
I'm undecided about my interior. Retrim some Recaro PP to match, or repair my well worn seats. |
Originally Posted by 964tit
(Post 14695350)
Looking good!
I'm undecided about my interior. Retrim some Recaro PP to match, or repair my life well worn seats. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14695542)
It depends what you mean by well worn. If the leather is intact, then a recolour is easy. If panels need to be replaced, then I’d recover the seats totally. What’s in there right now? |
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Originally Posted by 964tit
Standard seats. Passenger side is ok, drivers side bolster is mashed. Will require replacement. No tears, but lots of wear.
You might get away with a filler and recolour but it's still expensive and it will likely wear even worse on the repair. Not an easy decision but originality is important to some so just fitting new seats may be kicking the can down the road. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14695665)
My Silver Car's driver bolster was munted. I could have had the seat disassembled, repaired the panel and sorted out the colour but I would have been up for a reasonable labour bill and it wouldn't have resulted in the standard I wanted.
You might get away with a filler and recolour but it's still expensive and it will likely wear even worse on the repair. Not an easy decision but originality is important to some so just fitting new seats may be kicking the can down the road. Fact is, if I get the Recaros, I'll still have to clean up the oem seats as I'm accumulating oem bits either way (I'm only doing reversible stuff on the interior and exterior). I want the Recaro PPs just because I've always lusted after them! I'm thinking those trimmed in the same dark blue with black watch tartan cushions. Maybe tartan rs door cards as well. All reversible of course. |
Upholstery should be easy but it's probably the flakiest trade I have dealt with so far. They seem to take ages to get things done.
The critical part is the materials used. In NZ we have a specialist supplier, Le Mans. http://lemansautofabrics.co.nz/index.html |
Update on the spoiler. I was getting random alarms, but putting a new spoiler controller box in seems to have fixed it. The old box looks like it was water damaged, but I will have a go at fixing it anyway.
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I get random alarms with mine too so I'm looking for to seeing with you find. I guess I really should study up on electronics! All the cars i've had previous to this were relatively simple. Pete |
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Originally Posted by Peteinjp
I get random alarms with mine too so I'm looking for to seeing with you find. I guess I really should study up on electronics! All the cars i've had previous to this were relatively simple. Pete |
I ran the car for 10 minutes at 2,000rpm, then decided I might as well drive around the block for the next ten minutes.
After that I did the first oil change. Not much in the way of metal in the oil pan. I will now run the running-in oil until 1,000km are up. |
Now that is how to ring in the new year! It's as if you planned it that way. Congratulations! Pete |
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Originally Posted by Peteinjp
Now that is how to ring in the new year! It's as if you planned it that way. Congratulations! Pete Next job is replacing the front suspension top mounts on the Silver car. The work never seems to end. |
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I'm expecting the top mount to arrive today so need to amass the tools.
The top nut is 22mm and needs to move independently of the internal shaft which is held by a 7mm hex. So you need a special socket or to grind flanges on a 22mm socket so you can hold it with a spanner and insert a 7mm hex key down the socket hole. While I used a borrowed ground down socket last time, I decided to buy something more professional this time. Luckily they make a 22mm oxygen sensor socket that fits perfectly. Win! Used in conjunction with a 7mm hex socket it's an easy job. |
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New mount is in and I like the quality. I bought it from Design 911 for USD 100. It's their retro line i.e. after market. That's where the good news ends....for me.
As soon as the old mount came off I had doubts. There was no slack in the mount centre and no obvious way it could click...unless the nut on top of the strut was loose. Quite possible after 2,500 miles of spirited driving :( Hero to zero. |
so...the noise is coming somewhere from the control arm? Or top Mount itself?
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Originally Posted by 964tit
(Post 14706374)
so...the noise is coming somewhere from the control arm? Or top Mount itself?
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Crucial DIY today (not really). The garage chair ex a local cheap automotive supplier comes with rubbish wood in the base so it breaks and makes it difficult to sit on for long.
A $1 offcut of 7 ply from a local hardware store cut with a jigsaw and then restapled and refixed to the base has revived it. These chairs are dirt cheap new (USD 26 from Harbor Freight) but I dislike planned obsolescence so I count this as a win. |
I’ve been doing quite a few oil changes recently and have a dilemma with torquing the engine drain bolt. The torque specification is 32ft lbs or 50 Nm. This is too high for my smaller 1/4” torque wrench which would fit in the space between the heat exchanger and drain bolt. The 1/2” torque wrench with a normal 15mm socket is too large to fit in the gap. I looked for a shallow socket but couldn’t find one. There is a spanner type torque wrench available but that is $$$. What are others using to get the correct torque? |
One option for the above is to use a swivel joint. I'll try that at the next oil change. I have two new drain plugs coming so I don't risk rounding out the bolt head any more.
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First world problems. I ordered the correct interior screws by PET number and Porsche supplied chrome ones versus the black ones in the car. I think I'll buy the interior fixing kit next time. http://www.classic9leathershop.com/s...e-automobiles/
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14707381)
What are others using to get the correct torque? |
Originally Posted by ffc
This won't help. I just tighten it until I'm happy......
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I'm lucky to have two C4s so I can compare driving performance and sense when something is below par e.g. I noticed that the White car brakes were so much better after its full bleed than the Silver car's so I completed a 13 point brake bleed on it.
It took three litres of fluid and approximately 3 hours. The extra litre of fluid was due to finding a lot of air in the rear calipers. I think I might use the wet method next time as a lot of time is wasted checking and refilling the reservoir. A bonus of the task was bonding time with my wife as she did the switch flipping for the diff locks. It was a close call between her and the scissor lift in terms of love for a moment there, but she's pulled out in front now :) |
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I don't know what it is with Porsche owners but they are never shy of telling me when something isn't right on my cars. One such thing was the gap where the shark fin meets the side sill. For some reason the gap between the body and the last clip on the side sill is too large for the clip to latch. Rather than bend the body panel I modified the clip to a screw fit. I just used the screw off a spare shark fin clip. Very secure. The fit is now perfect even if the rubber is a little bit short :/
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I need a lift and platform system like that. Looks perfect for a single car garage also.
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Originally Posted by 911Jetta
I need a lift and platform system like that. Looks perfect for a single car garage also.
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I went down to the local paint shop for a tin of touch up paint. I brought the spare tin of the 2k paint used to respray my car with me and the guy looked at me strangely.
He said, "why would I make up new paint when you already have a perfect match?" When I replied that it was 2k and needs hardener he told me that it will still harden by itself, it just takes a bit longer. Cheapest car day for a while, just use what I already have. He even put it into a smaller tin for free. Said I had paid enough for the paint in the first place. That's a win! |
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Apparently there is a limit to how much grease a CV joint can hold. Nothing damaged except my pride.
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Last step on the Silver car interior, the seat hinge covers. These are USD 60 each new, so while it would be preferable to have new Black ones, the budget will only allow painted Linen ones right now. Three coats of Porsche Black plastic paint and all sorted.
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Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14707381)
I’ve been doing quite a few oil changes recently and have a dilemma with torquing the engine drain bolt. The torque specification is 32ft lbs or 50 Nm. This is too high for my smaller 1/4” torque wrench which would fit in the space between the heat exchanger and drain bolt. The 1/2” torque wrench with a normal 15mm socket is too large to fit in the gap. I looked for a shallow socket but couldn’t find one. There is a spanner type torque wrench available but that is $$$. What are others using to get the correct torque?
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14723634)
Apparently there is a limit to how much grease a CV joint can hold.
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Snap-On Torque AdapterFill the joint but put nothing in the boot! And you can also use 3M Scotch seal 750 between the large end of the dust boot and the sealing flange joint.
Noted on the CV joint. I think it might have been you that warned me previously about overdoing the grease ;) |
Phase one of the light refurb on the 1990 Silver C4 “Project” car is finished. Phase two and three would be paint and engine, but there is no immediate need and those will be a future owner’s decision. Items done: New Battery Left rear indicator - replaced with better used and reskinned Right rear indicator - replaced with better used Centre indicator - replaced with better used Front indicators - replaced with better used Rear decal - replaced with better used Fix odometer New front badge New front Bilstein B6 shocks New rear Bilstein B6 shocks New H&R sports springs New rear bump stops New front strut stop gaskets New front strut mount New frunk struts New engine lid struts New interior Sliverknit carpet, New Silverknit door pocket carpet New front leather seat covers New rear leather seat back covers New rear leather seat squabs New vinyl rear quarter covers New vinyl door cards New vinyl B pillar covers New aluminium door kick plate panels New plastic seat trim fittings Used leather 964 steering wheel (excellent condition) New steering wheel indicator ring Brand New Hankook tyres Used 993 seat belts. (Better condition than originals) Used black door pulls and bin lids (colour won’t wear off) New driver door seal New brake pads New Brake pad sensors New Brake anti vibe shims New Keinzle stereo with Bluetooth and Telephone functions New Kenwood sub woofer New Rockford Fosgate front speakers New First function gear knob Fit rear wiper arm (original broken) Interior gutted then covered with Dynamat and Dynaliner New Foam and rubber under rear seat squab New RS engine mounts New console cup New handbrake position sensor New interior door handles New ignition rose cover New door cap covers New mirror adjust knob New driver door light switch and cover. New driver window switch Fit used 964 cigar lighter (missing) Replace fan control knobs with better used ones Remove window tint Remove after market alarm New driver door window motor with new OEM Porsche door membrane New carpet over-mats Replace spoiler controller with later digital version to fix fault New spoiler curtain wall Replace rear fan motor Replace sunroof seal Replace 3 CV boots Powder coat cooling fan and install new hub bearing Replace alternator with good used one. Replace alternator and cooling fan belts Brake fluid change with full 13 point brake bleed with RBF600 Oil and filter change. New air filter. Cup 1 Wheels refinished Replace rattling secondary muffler with good used one Replace cup pipe with original primary muffler. New wiper blades New engine bay decals |
Thoughts from completing the above: Much of the work would not be possible without the knowledge and support from the Rennlist community. Thanks to all that helped Despite fitting my spare parts in some cases, the purchased parts and upholsterer labour came to USD 16,300. I believe the work done would be completely uneconomic if given to a workshop. When you put a new part next to an older part, you will want to replace the older part. The ordering process will test your patience. Parts are delayed, wrong parts are ordered, wrong parts are supplied. Some parts are outrageously priced. Trades will test your patience e.g. my seat backs sat part finished with an upholsterer for a year. If you put after market parts on your car and sell the orignals, then to put it bluntly you are a mug. When you sell your car, the buyer will likely want to discount the price by the amount to put it back to original. Try pricing an excellent condition 380mm steering wheel and see what I mean. Try not to start a lot of tasks and render the car unfinished and undriveable for a long period. At some stage you will wonder whether the project will ever finish. Going for a drive is a great reminder why you are doing this. As much as I love the 964 C4, having two is non sensical. The Project car will likely be in a new garage sooner rather than later. When it leaves my driveway for the last time I will be proud of every task completed on it, full in the knowledge that I can easily do this again, time permitting. As a final note, this anecdote about Jobs touched me. If there is one defining characteristic of Steve Jobs that has run like a thread through his entire career, it is a genuine obsession with the way that things are crafted. Not merely content to set specifications and see that they were met, Jobs frequently went above and beyond to ensure that the products he had a hand in were made in the best way possible. In the biography of Jobs, Walter Isaacson reveals the likely source of this focus on craftsmanship, Jobs adoptive father, Paul Jobs. Paul Jobs was a mechanic, good with his hands and intelligent with his work, which largely focused on cars and then constructing metal parts for laser assemblies in Silicon Valley. “I thought my dad’s sense of design was pretty good,” Jobs told Isaacson, “because he knew how to build anything. If we needed a cabinet, he would build it. When he built our fence, he gave me a hammer so I could work with him.” Fifty years after the fence was constructed, Jobs showed it to Isaacson, still standing and recalled a lesson about making things of quality that he learned from his father. Touching the boards of inside of the fence, he said that “He loved doing things right. He even cared about the look of the parts you couldn’t see.” He said that his father refused to use poor wood for the back of cabinets, or to build a fence that wasn’t constructed as well on the back side as it was the front. Jobs likened it to using a piece of plywood on the back of a beautiful chest of drawers. “For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through.” |
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Final interior task (albeit there is one tweak I'd like to do to a door bin seam if the PPI this week is a fail). The rear seat squabs were glued down using clear construction adhesive and then weighted while they dried.
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My White C4 had a fugly Techart tail. Its position on the decklid meant that the Carrera 4 badge was positioned lower than normal. Now I have a normal spoiler I want to place the badge in the correct position.
My Silver C4 badge has been replaced and I'm not sure if its position is absolutely correct either. Can someone please check an absolutely certain original badge position to see if the measurements agree (in mm) with the attached image? |
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Originally Posted by Spokes
(Post 14729297)
on some angles I can see the shadow of the decal in the White car’s paint. I’ll check it now. |
Checked and based on the very faint paint colour difference it appears that your position is correct. My badge is 17mm too high on the Silver car. |
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White car badge installed
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Number plates swapped between cars and visiting a local air cooled owner. '70, '82 and '90 showing clear lineage. The rebuilt engine has 130km on it and so far is completely dry :) |
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The more I DIY the more I get given parts.
This suspension was off a 1990 C2 with 135,000 km that was given all of the trick parts a few years back. The Boge shocks were shot as were the front bump stops, but the mounts and spring plates were a score. Into my parts stash. |
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...105fd3f47.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...98363b790.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...42baa3b80.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8b8e4d210.jpeg I couldn't get the fit I expected with the CF heater delete pipe at the rubber duct end (I had to tape it on) and initially blamed the part. Then I checked the parts diagram and found out I was missing a part, a rubber gasket 993 211 350 00. It was a tight fit, using lithium grease to help get it on, but the result was worth it. Rock solid and no more tape. |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...21b065930.jpeg Last pic with the car. A sad day but I knew it was coming eventually. With the White car engine rebuild finished I had two working 964s and one had to be sold. The Silver car went to a new owner today. Hopefully it will be driven and well looked after. |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7c3befd32.jpeg The recently rebuilt car went into the local inspection station, where they found its headlight adjustment was way off. They also noted that the vacuum headlight adjuster didn't operate. The latter worried me as the resonance flap is also vacuum operated and controls top end power, so a vacuum leak would impact that as well. To test the vacuum I bought a tester and connected it to the intake connection. The system held a vacuum. I then turned the ignition on to see if the solenoid worked and if vacuum was operating the resonance flap. Yes to everything. Now to test the headlight adjuster. |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0e3a6b857.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6b819ca7a.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...600c9e4de.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f59e769ea.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...86ce06fd7.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4c27869b3.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...922e4b831.jpeg One of the many things I liked about the Silver C4 was that it had a real life ride height. I never worried about driveways etc as it had the clearance to drive anywhere. The White car on the other hand has scraped my driveway each time. It needed more height. The first thing to do was measure its current height. Based on the manual the car was RS - 11 and - 15 at the front and RS - 3 on the rear. So the rear was fine but the front was ridiculous low. Time to adjust. Fellow Rennlister, Spokes, lent me his C spanner tools, plus gave me a tip on measuring the points, use a telescopic mirror. I temporarily removed the mirror to make it easier to get in the tight measuring spots. |
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...045d54dbb.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7e8c16bc6.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...65ee85a18.jpeg The front measuring point is very easy to locate. The rear is almost as easy if you use the rear arm boss however you must remove the Left hand shark fin to measure it correctly. I was able to use the oil drain area on the right hand side to measure the height there without removing the shark fin on that side. Make absolutely sure that you reference the correct rear point as the manual has different height settings based on the one you chose. Once you know the height difference, then the aim is to change the strut effective height by adjusting the lower spring perch. I simply noted the current position and moved it by the height difference I wanted. Please note this is not wholly accurate as the spring load is what changes the height. Another thing to note is that increasing spring pre load increases the height and the inverse. The manual describes it differently, it says that turning the adjuster clockwise raises the height and anti clockwise lowers the car. I can’t see how this is correct. Beware. With the height reset I took the car for a drive to settle it, then measured it again. The measurements were all good. I also took the measurement from the top of the arch through the wheel centre. The pics here are RS height. It’s a nice drive and doesn’t hit the driveway anymore. A win. |
Good job John. I used my telescopic pickup magnet pen not my mirror to measure the height. But both obviously work. |
Originally Posted by Spokes
Good job John. I used my telescopic pickup magnet pen not my mirror to measure the height. But both obviously work. |
Hi John, did you recheck the rear height following adjustment of the front? A corner adjustment will also affect the opposite corner ie raising/lowering a corner will also effect the opposite corner at the other end of the car.
Granted with the weight distribution and rake of these cars, a front adjustment only has a small effect on the rear however I was surprised just how much of a difference adjusting the rear makes to the opposing front. |
Originally Posted by robt964
(Post 14756271)
Hi John, did you recheck the rear height following adjustment of the front? A corner adjustment will also affect the opposite corner ie raising/lowering a corner will also effect the opposite corner at the other end of the car.
Granted with the weight distribution and rake of these cars, a front adjustment only has a small effect on the rear however I was surprised just how much of a difference adjusting the rear makes to the opposing front. |
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7c94db04d.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...07e7c2b59.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e602605b3.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...acdb53349.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e6c891f52.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ffab92a43.jpeg I love improving my car but I'm not so sure this one was smart or worth it. It converts the brake reservoir to a vented cap and no longer requires a clamp on the overflow pipe when using a Motive pressure bleeder. The real concern I have about this mod is the reservoir overflow blanking method. The rubber plug isn't overly tight and the (expensive) fastener doesn't seem to clamp tightly. I think I'll remove it and use a brake fluid friendly sealant with the cap and fastener to make sure it won't leak fluid over my paint. Aside from a sexy new cap, I'd say leave this alone, in hindsight. btw sorry about the pics. The usually reliable garage talk app is giving Internal Server 500 errors and the alternate method is doing something strange to my pics. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14757147)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7c94db04d.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...07e7c2b59.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e602605b3.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...acdb53349.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e6c891f52.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ffab92a43.jpeg I love improving my car but I'm not so sure this one was smart or worth it. It converts the brake reservoir to a vented cap and no longer requires a clamp on the overflow pipe when using a Motive pressure bleeder. The real concern I have about this mod is the reservoir overflow blanking method. The rubber plug isn't overly tight and the (expensive) fastener doesn't seem to clamp tightly. I think I'll remove it and use a brake fluid friendly sealant with the cap and fastener to make sure it won't leak fluid over my paint. Aside from a sexy new cap, I'd say leave this alone, in hindsight. btw sorry about the pics. The usually reliable garage talk app is giving Internal Server 500 errors and the alternate method is doing something strange to my pics. |
Originally Posted by Spokes
(Post 14757624)
‘I agree with you John. This is a backward step. The clip is rubbish. I have done a brake bleed since the mod, and it held together, however, in hindsight I wouldn’t have done this mod. |
I used one of the crimp-on host clips to secure the bung just like those on the original vent tube. No way its moving.
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Originally Posted by robt964
(Post 14762244)
I used one of the crimp-on host clips to secure the bung just like those on the original vent tube. No way its moving.
|
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https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4d3571f7f.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a0db93778.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...801151ccd.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...47b285f7c.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2743edab4.jpeg I prefer to only post when I need help or have finished a task so posts have been few and far between. Today I closed off one item though. I became sick of driving short tentative runs for the running in period and decided to finish it off by running one of my local back road drives and push that growling flat six through the corners for 200km. I started out before Dawn so I had the road to myself. I did a similar run in the afternoon as well so 400km in total. After that, I replaced the running in oil with a high zinc 15w 50. The oil pressure rose noticeably. The old oil condition was uneventful. No shavings. All good. |
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0bd6383cd.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b3ee04683.jpeg Ok, I declared a win on the engine and predictably someone came back and said, “did you check the filter?”. Well I have now. I borrowed a Summit Racing oil filter cutter and took the filter apart. Nothing in there :) BTW This was a Mahle OC54 filter. The type you can buy at Pelican Parts. |
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https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3c42a5ec6.jpeg
Originally Posted by Dingo
(Post 14814746)
Love this photo!
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Actually, some of my most memorable drives have been at Dawn. This was four years ago in the Crown Range in Southern New Zealand. I’ve yet to find a way to get good engine sound recording so don’t give me hassles about the music. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14814915)
Actually, some of my most memorable drives have been at Dawn. This was four years ago in the Crown Range in Southern New Zealand. I’ve yet to find a way to get good engine sound recording so don’t give me hassles about the music. https://youtu.be/ep3cZOZTjxM |
It's between Queenstown and Wanaka. It is like the European mountain passes at the bottom, then has a faster section followed by a good climb. Going over the summit leads to a winding valley road. Lots of camper vans so best done at dawn. Here's the full run with no sound
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I did more research on cutting the oil filter. Apparently the oil flows from outside to in, so I was right to use a specialist cutter that left no swarf, but it was pointless cutting up the filter paper to look inside. It's ok for a one time effort after a rebuild but the magnet on the drain plug will tell me enough in future so I'm not going to buy this tool.
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John those videos are killing me! First off the roads and scenery are nothing short of amazing and on top of that- no traffic. Here in Japan we have some fun roads but at dawn the older generation of farmers are all out and about in their little farm trucks- typically at 25kph...
And- I haven't been able to drive for over 2 months now and it will be at least another 3 before the melting snow is not leaving the mountains roads wet every day. Do do you have any more vids? Pete |
Hi Pete, we live in motoring paradise down under.
Here is an older video of the same general area that I drove last weekend |
One of our road trips
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And the best driving road we've found so far. It's smooth, perfectly cambered and relatively lightly trafficked.
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I'm yet to head down that way. Actually I've never really been far out of christchurch, work work work unfortunately.. Do you have a YouTube chnnel or something we can look up John?
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Originally Posted by Dingo
I'm yet to head down that way. Actually I've never really been far out of christchurch, work work work unfortunately.. Do you have a YouTube chnnel or something we can look up John?
|
Originally Posted by Peteinjp
(Post 14816302)
John those videos are killing me! First off the roads and scenery are nothing short of amazing and on top of that- no traffic. Here in Japan we have some fun roads but at dawn the older generation of farmers are all out and about in their little farm trucks- typically at 25kph...
And- I haven't been able to drive for over 2 months now and it will be at least another 3 before the melting snow is not leaving the mountains roads wet every day. Do do you have any more vids? Pete |
Originally Posted by 964tit
(Post 14822815)
New Zealand roads are heaven - especially South Island, where about three people live. Have you seen video of Mike Whiddett drifting the Crown Range?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il986P_ooEE |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9b0e777be.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...220931d92.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6cf13ccd0.jpeg I’ve been doing some work on another 964 this week where I installed a new frunk cable opening and added an emergency release as well. |
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...255ab8ab9.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0b628befd.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b8ca7cb58.jpeg The emergency cable is threaded through an exisiting hole that comes out next to the air con condenser. You can access it by removing the side reflector. The only challenge is attaching it to the catch as the 1990 model didn’t have provision for an emergency release. |
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4add846d1.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1f3179dd7.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...63dc66c76.jpeg I took the car to an autocross event with the local Porsche Club. The theory was for a 7/10ths run, but that plan quickly went out the window. I was third out of 30 cars. Road legal Hankook Z221 track tyres and that 4wd system proved to be the difference. |
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4ca55e5bf.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...36561eaa8.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3e09127a7.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3754872a4.jpeg Q https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...226b25aa0.jpeg With the autocross finished I decided to tackle three big jobs: 1. Replace the Air con evaporator 2. Fix the crack in the driver door inner skin and modify the stay mechanism; and 3. Fit new carpet. Tonight was a general tear down, starting with a relatively empty garage because I know how congested it will become. The real work is yet to come. |
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WOW, congrats John.. awesome runs. Looks like you have the set-up about maximized. :)
Real inspiration! |
Originally Posted by Deserion
(Post 14838719)
I wonder what a Carrera 3 is, though (4th). A C4 with a broken axle? :D
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Originally Posted by turbotwoshoes
(Post 14839181)
WOW, congrats John.. awesome runs. Looks like you have the set-up about maximized. :)
Real inspiration! I know my car well and as I keep on saying a C4 in real world driving is a great drivers car. It gives nothing away to the C2 and walks away from it in the wet. |
Originally Posted by John McM
(Post 14839221)
A Carrera 3.0 is a late 1970s model with 197hp and 1,120kg. Nimble and quick with 5.68kg/hp. My Car is 1,380kg so 5.52kg/hp I'd definitely check your evaporator blowers since you're pulling it apart. I'm eager to see how well my A/C works this summer now that I've changed mine out. |
Originally Posted by Deserion
(Post 14839462)
That's what I figured, decided to add a bit of levity. :)
I'd definitely check your evaporator blowers since you're pulling it apart. I'm eager to see how well my A/C works this summer now that I've changed mine out. I'm aiming to have this car for life so I want it to be in as near new condition as I can get it right now. Apart from evidence of a small hit under the front left frunk area (I suspect it hit a kerb) I know this car is totally rust and accident free. Glass out respray, engine rebuild and transmission rebuild all done. These three tasks will get me to near perfect. I've even ordered an interior screw kit from Classic 9 to go through each fitting to make sure it's correct. |
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