Teardown begins. Suspension madness...
03-08-2019, 03:34 PM
#1156
Drifting
The following users liked this post:
9SIX4-C4 (06-26-2019)
05-02-2019, 10:20 PM
#1158
Amazing thread! While I know it's several years old this has been so informational. Thanks for this! Being new to Porsche and the 964 c4 and its rising value i'm a bit apprehensive to do certain things and mucking it up even worse. I worried less when I modified my Infiniti. 
That said I do have several questions on a few items:
1) What is your thought on the elephant racing tools used to remove the Front control arm bushings? As you mentioned it broke so i'm not sure if it's worth spending the extra money if I were to do this myself. Also, would a regular press or bushing removal tool work?
2) For front sway bar installation is it a must to remove the entire subframe? Or can you just remove the bar? As for drop links Elephant Racing offers adjustable ones. Is it worth it? You mentioned Stock is just fine.
3) Tie rod replacement. At what point do you think is necessary just replacing the oem versus a bump steer kit? I think i'm at RS height now(not sure) but i'd like to go lower maybe 10-15mm more.
4) This is a stupid question. My spring plates are rusted all to hell at this point would you say its worth replacing? Going by what you mentioned you shouldn't need to. Rather just the bushings.
5) What was the dimensions of the board used to jack up the front again? 23" length x Width??
I see you're in Houston often? I hope next time you're in town there is an event happening. I have heard rumors of a large Porsche centric event coming possibly in August that may be in downtown and sponsored by the city.
Anyhow, apologies for the numerous questions but I'm sure I'll have more as time goes on. Thank you in advance for your reply.
That said I do have several questions on a few items:1) What is your thought on the elephant racing tools used to remove the Front control arm bushings? As you mentioned it broke so i'm not sure if it's worth spending the extra money if I were to do this myself. Also, would a regular press or bushing removal tool work?
2) For front sway bar installation is it a must to remove the entire subframe? Or can you just remove the bar? As for drop links Elephant Racing offers adjustable ones. Is it worth it? You mentioned Stock is just fine.
3) Tie rod replacement. At what point do you think is necessary just replacing the oem versus a bump steer kit? I think i'm at RS height now(not sure) but i'd like to go lower maybe 10-15mm more.
4) This is a stupid question. My spring plates are rusted all to hell at this point would you say its worth replacing? Going by what you mentioned you shouldn't need to. Rather just the bushings.
5) What was the dimensions of the board used to jack up the front again? 23" length x Width??
I see you're in Houston often? I hope next time you're in town there is an event happening. I have heard rumors of a large Porsche centric event coming possibly in August that may be in downtown and sponsored by the city.
Anyhow, apologies for the numerous questions but I'm sure I'll have more as time goes on. Thank you in advance for your reply.
05-02-2019, 11:46 PM
#1159
Race Car
Thread Starter
I'll be in Houston over memorial weekend - heading to MSR for an scca event.
I wish i could see the questions while I'm responding - so if i miss any, I'll post again.
Don't bother w the elephant tool for the bushing removal. It's fine for taking out new bushings. But the force required for old bushings is HUGE. So you will break the tool.
The elephant adjustable end links weren't available yet - so we didn't use them. I would only use them now. They are great for c4s
Rs tie rods- same deal. I will only use them now - they are awesome.
Bump steer kits don't work. So go 993 rs uprights or raise the car to rs+10 if you don't want bump steer.
You have to remove at least one side subframe to do the front swaybar on a c4
Spring plates...if i had to do it again, i still like the idea of changing just the bushing for a normal street car. But for me, i would use the tarret plates w heim joints instead. The oem plates function the same with oem bushings and elephant bushings - so if there is play in your bushings, which is frankly unlikely, replace w elephant...unless....
Unless you don't like Weissach effect. Aka, the wheels steering in and against the pendulum under load. I would like to minimize this, and the tarret plates don't flex as much and therefore will remove a bit of that movement. Downside is they won't last nearly as long as oem.
Rust, in this case, means nothing. So don't sweat the rust. Play in the bushing does matter, but the bushings rarely have play.
Boards are 2x8x22 under the front pan to Jack the front. Put the board btw the forward most control arm bushings.
Under the wheels they are 2x8x24.
I wish i could see the questions while I'm responding - so if i miss any, I'll post again.
Don't bother w the elephant tool for the bushing removal. It's fine for taking out new bushings. But the force required for old bushings is HUGE. So you will break the tool.
The elephant adjustable end links weren't available yet - so we didn't use them. I would only use them now. They are great for c4s
Rs tie rods- same deal. I will only use them now - they are awesome.
Bump steer kits don't work. So go 993 rs uprights or raise the car to rs+10 if you don't want bump steer.
You have to remove at least one side subframe to do the front swaybar on a c4
Spring plates...if i had to do it again, i still like the idea of changing just the bushing for a normal street car. But for me, i would use the tarret plates w heim joints instead. The oem plates function the same with oem bushings and elephant bushings - so if there is play in your bushings, which is frankly unlikely, replace w elephant...unless....
Unless you don't like Weissach effect. Aka, the wheels steering in and against the pendulum under load. I would like to minimize this, and the tarret plates don't flex as much and therefore will remove a bit of that movement. Downside is they won't last nearly as long as oem.
Rust, in this case, means nothing. So don't sweat the rust. Play in the bushing does matter, but the bushings rarely have play.
Boards are 2x8x22 under the front pan to Jack the front. Put the board btw the forward most control arm bushings.
Under the wheels they are 2x8x24.
05-02-2019, 11:52 PM
#1160
Race Car
Thread Starter
Oh- and NEVER worry about unbolting something on a 964...you can always bolt it back on. Lol.
Feel free to pm me anytime. I'll give you my cell and you can text me while mucking things up and I'll talk you off the ledge. Lol. Been there.
Note on the value increase of 964s...yes the values have gone up- but only because of all the cool kids changing them, making them unique, sorting them out, and making them handle well.
Bone stock 964 handle like crap and are boring as gap khakis. For the money, they are terrible sports cars, and completely average. We've always known this. And the entire rennlist 964 community has been turning them into fantastic cars for years....and for this, non of us can now afford to buy more! Or even find a good one for sale at a reasonable price...lol.
I rue the day i see one at a concours, and i hear a judge get excited about the car having the original boge struts and American oem C4 springs that are two inches too tall.
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
Feel free to pm me anytime. I'll give you my cell and you can text me while mucking things up and I'll talk you off the ledge. Lol. Been there.
Note on the value increase of 964s...yes the values have gone up- but only because of all the cool kids changing them, making them unique, sorting them out, and making them handle well.
Bone stock 964 handle like crap and are boring as gap khakis. For the money, they are terrible sports cars, and completely average. We've always known this. And the entire rennlist 964 community has been turning them into fantastic cars for years....and for this, non of us can now afford to buy more! Or even find a good one for sale at a reasonable price...lol.
I rue the day i see one at a concours, and i hear a judge get excited about the car having the original boge struts and American oem C4 springs that are two inches too tall.
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
05-03-2019, 06:25 AM
#1161
I rue the day i see one at a concours, and i hear a judge get excited about the car having the original boge struts and American oem C4 springs that are two inches too tall.
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
05-03-2019, 12:44 PM
#1162
I'll be in Houston over memorial weekend - heading to MSR for an scca event.
I wish i could see the questions while I'm responding - so if i miss any, I'll post again.
Don't bother w the elephant tool for the bushing removal. It's fine for taking out new bushings. But the force required for old bushings is HUGE. So you will break the tool.
The elephant adjustable end links weren't available yet - so we didn't use them. I would only use them now. They are great for c4s
Rs tie rods- same deal. I will only use them now - they are awesome.
Bump steer kits don't work. So go 993 rs uprights or raise the car to rs+10 if you don't want bump steer.
You have to remove at least one side subframe to do the front swaybar on a c4
Spring plates...if i had to do it again, i still like the idea of changing just the bushing for a normal street car. But for me, i would use the tarret plates w heim joints instead. The oem plates function the same with oem bushings and elephant bushings - so if there is play in your bushings, which is frankly unlikely, replace w elephant...unless....
Unless you don't like Weissach effect. Aka, the wheels steering in and against the pendulum under load. I would like to minimize this, and the tarret plates don't flex as much and therefore will remove a bit of that movement. Downside is they won't last nearly as long as oem.
Rust, in this case, means nothing. So don't sweat the rust. Play in the bushing does matter, but the bushings rarely have play.
Boards are 2x8x22 under the front pan to Jack the front. Put the board btw the forward most control arm bushings.
Under the wheels they are 2x8x24.
I wish i could see the questions while I'm responding - so if i miss any, I'll post again.
Don't bother w the elephant tool for the bushing removal. It's fine for taking out new bushings. But the force required for old bushings is HUGE. So you will break the tool.
The elephant adjustable end links weren't available yet - so we didn't use them. I would only use them now. They are great for c4s
Rs tie rods- same deal. I will only use them now - they are awesome.
Bump steer kits don't work. So go 993 rs uprights or raise the car to rs+10 if you don't want bump steer.
You have to remove at least one side subframe to do the front swaybar on a c4
Spring plates...if i had to do it again, i still like the idea of changing just the bushing for a normal street car. But for me, i would use the tarret plates w heim joints instead. The oem plates function the same with oem bushings and elephant bushings - so if there is play in your bushings, which is frankly unlikely, replace w elephant...unless....
Unless you don't like Weissach effect. Aka, the wheels steering in and against the pendulum under load. I would like to minimize this, and the tarret plates don't flex as much and therefore will remove a bit of that movement. Downside is they won't last nearly as long as oem.
Rust, in this case, means nothing. So don't sweat the rust. Play in the bushing does matter, but the bushings rarely have play.
Boards are 2x8x22 under the front pan to Jack the front. Put the board btw the forward most control arm bushings.
Under the wheels they are 2x8x24.
Oh- and NEVER worry about unbolting something on a 964...you can always bolt it back on. Lol.
Feel free to pm me anytime. I'll give you my cell and you can text me while mucking things up and I'll talk you off the ledge. Lol. Been there.
Note on the value increase of 964s...yes the values have gone up- but only because of all the cool kids changing them, making them unique, sorting them out, and making them handle well.
Bone stock 964 handle like crap and are boring as gap khakis. For the money, they are terrible sports cars, and completely average. We've always known this. And the entire rennlist 964 community has been turning them into fantastic cars for years....and for this, non of us can now afford to buy more! Or even find a good one for sale at a reasonable price...lol.
I rue the day i see one at a concours, and i hear a judge get excited about the car having the original boge struts and American oem C4 springs that are two inches too tall.
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
Feel free to pm me anytime. I'll give you my cell and you can text me while mucking things up and I'll talk you off the ledge. Lol. Been there.
Note on the value increase of 964s...yes the values have gone up- but only because of all the cool kids changing them, making them unique, sorting them out, and making them handle well.
Bone stock 964 handle like crap and are boring as gap khakis. For the money, they are terrible sports cars, and completely average. We've always known this. And the entire rennlist 964 community has been turning them into fantastic cars for years....and for this, non of us can now afford to buy more! Or even find a good one for sale at a reasonable price...lol.
I rue the day i see one at a concours, and i hear a judge get excited about the car having the original boge struts and American oem C4 springs that are two inches too tall.
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
Are spectators allowed at the SCCA events? MSR is about 30 minutes away from me (Sugar Land) so I will try and swing through and maybe take pics of cars and stuff and general potato-ing. Plus it would be cool to put a face to the name.
I agree on the raising of value. Everyone needs to return to oem and make it hideous so the value will drop just so i can buy another. LOL.
Thanks again,
Ryan
05-03-2019, 01:13 PM
#1163
Racer
"Oh yes, look at this, we have the original struts and springs, original swaybars, and the original 6 inch wide front d90 16 inch wheels with 205 tires. I'm going to mark here that this wonderfully restored specimen will surely have understeer characteristics equal to that of a 1978 Volkswagen dasher diesel, as per the factory's design and wishes."
My new favorite line!
My new favorite line!
05-04-2019, 02:00 PM
#1164
Rennlist Member
"You have to remove at least one side subframe to do the front swaybar on a c4 "
I just removed and installed my sway bar without removing the subframe(s). I recall that I still had the control arms out before pulling it out and then replacing the rubber bushings. It takes some twisting and turning but it comes out.
In retrospect, I wish I had just started with a full tear down (as Goughary has shown), rather that doing things piecemeal. Oh, i will just do the CV boots, oh I will do the control arm bushing, oh I will do the wheel bearing, oh I will do the tie rods, oh I will do the ball joints, oh i will do the sway bar. And then, I had to hurry up and put it back together before my budget allowed for new struts, .... Bah.
I just removed and installed my sway bar without removing the subframe(s). I recall that I still had the control arms out before pulling it out and then replacing the rubber bushings. It takes some twisting and turning but it comes out.
In retrospect, I wish I had just started with a full tear down (as Goughary has shown), rather that doing things piecemeal. Oh, i will just do the CV boots, oh I will do the control arm bushing, oh I will do the wheel bearing, oh I will do the tie rods, oh I will do the ball joints, oh i will do the sway bar. And then, I had to hurry up and put it back together before my budget allowed for new struts, .... Bah.
06-21-2019, 05:07 PM
#1166
Race Car
Thread Starter
There has been a lot going on around here...but almost all of it has been sorting a 92 cab. I should have done a proper build thread but when i started, i had no idea i was going to rebuild the entire car, lol.
As to the suspension on the cab, we wanted to keep it feeling somewhat compliant but being it up a notch. So we did bilstein B6 w h and r springs, h&r sport rear swaybar and stock front bar. Tarret RS tie rods, poly rack bushings and a rack brace. Then a good alignment. Car feels great. Huge huge improvement. But- relative to this thread, nothing really "new"...
The big job on that car was the cab roof. Which now works like new for the first time in 20 years...had always given him problems.
As to the suspension on the cab, we wanted to keep it feeling somewhat compliant but being it up a notch. So we did bilstein B6 w h and r springs, h&r sport rear swaybar and stock front bar. Tarret RS tie rods, poly rack bushings and a rack brace. Then a good alignment. Car feels great. Huge huge improvement. But- relative to this thread, nothing really "new"...
The big job on that car was the cab roof. Which now works like new for the first time in 20 years...had always given him problems.
06-21-2019, 05:18 PM
#1167
Rennlist Member
There has been a lot going on around here...but almost all of it has been sorting a 92 cab. I should have done a proper build thread but when i started, i had no idea i was going to rebuild the entire car, lol.
As to the suspension on the cab, we wanted to keep it feeling somewhat compliant but being it up a notch. So we did bilstein B6 w h and r springs, h&r sport rear swaybar and stock front bar. Tarret RS tie rods, poly rack bushings and a rack brace. Then a good alignment. Car feels great. Huge huge improvement. But- relative to this thread, nothing really "new"...
The big job on that car was the cab roof. Which now works like new for the first time in 20 years...had always given him problems.
As to the suspension on the cab, we wanted to keep it feeling somewhat compliant but being it up a notch. So we did bilstein B6 w h and r springs, h&r sport rear swaybar and stock front bar. Tarret RS tie rods, poly rack bushings and a rack brace. Then a good alignment. Car feels great. Huge huge improvement. But- relative to this thread, nothing really "new"...
The big job on that car was the cab roof. Which now works like new for the first time in 20 years...had always given him problems.
06-21-2019, 09:47 PM
#1168
Race Car
Thread Starter
Not yet - to be honest, this isn't my car. It was sent to me by a guy that found me through another rennlister- and I've been sorting it ever since...it's on old tires on the oem 16 inch wheels- we have a set of 17 inch campy sport wheels coming from Augment, which will have wider tires and sticky rubber...
So for the moment, i have not driven it anywhere near hard enough to lose the back end. But i have driven it "sprightly", and it feels great. It's going to be way better w the new tires, so when i install those I'll tweak the alignment and make it right.
So for the moment, i have not driven it anywhere near hard enough to lose the back end. But i have driven it "sprightly", and it feels great. It's going to be way better w the new tires, so when i install those I'll tweak the alignment and make it right.
06-21-2019, 09:51 PM
#1169
Race Car
Thread Starter
Btw, for what it's worth...Tomorrow I'm replacing the ignition switch. That is going to be awfully fun. Haven't done that yet, so it'll be a good learning experience. Maybe I'll do an ignition switch madness thread....
The following 2 users liked this post by Goughary:
964Luftballoon (06-22-2019),
9SIX4-C4 (06-26-2019)
06-21-2019, 10:00 PM
#1170
Rennlist Member
Pull the drivers seat, I tried to do mine without pulling it not a good idea. Have fun.
