Teardown begins. Suspension madness...
02-13-2019, 04:08 PM
#1144
Rennlist Member
So here we are years later...and you'd think what's done is done...
But noooooooo
I had bought KW V3 for my car, and those of you with more experience with KW can chime in here. The 964 struts are held on by two m12 Allen bolts. The KW i have, have a hole at the bottom that is 14mm, which is stupid, because that means the camber can change. And therefore other angles as well, though in reality, not a huge amount. But the camber change can be pretty massive.
Here are some quick shots. The measuring isn't super accurate, but you get the point.
Attachment 1291118
Attachment 1291119
Attachment 1291117
Soooooo, what to do?
I bought a set of reducing inserts made for the purpose...
Attachment 1291116
I also need to modify the upper hole on the upright as well, so that the strut can't slip in that one as well. There is not need to have camber adjustment on the upright when you have camber plates. So I'll get that worked out so things can be done a bit more accurately and stay put.
But noooooooo
I had bought KW V3 for my car, and those of you with more experience with KW can chime in here. The 964 struts are held on by two m12 Allen bolts. The KW i have, have a hole at the bottom that is 14mm, which is stupid, because that means the camber can change. And therefore other angles as well, though in reality, not a huge amount. But the camber change can be pretty massive.
Here are some quick shots. The measuring isn't super accurate, but you get the point.
Attachment 1291118
Attachment 1291119
Attachment 1291117
Soooooo, what to do?
I bought a set of reducing inserts made for the purpose...
Attachment 1291116
I also need to modify the upper hole on the upright as well, so that the strut can't slip in that one as well. There is not need to have camber adjustment on the upright when you have camber plates. So I'll get that worked out so things can be done a bit more accurately and stay put.
KW has shipped reducing washers without protest to my mechanic. Thank you for bringing this issue to light.
02-14-2019, 10:37 AM
#1145
Race Car
Thread Starter
Good to know they are coming around. They might come off my "will never buy again" list if they include the washers with all 964 purchases, and include the information on their website and in their sales materials, so that 964 buyers can make a properly informed decision prior to buying.
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous issue I've ever seen, and could be the most ridiculous response from a manufacturer.
On another note, once I'm done w the the car in my garage, I'll be pulling the wheels off my car after a winter of driving on the aftermarket step down washers i had bought (because kw said they wouldn't send me theirs). My concern with the aftermarket step down washers is not knowing anything about the material they are made of, i have no way of knowing if the material is hard enough to stay properly torqued. So fairly soon after a good amount of hard driving and lots are temperature changes I'll be checking in on them and will report back.
Keep in mind. In my opinion, this is a safety issue. And due to it being a safety issue- this is my only concern relative to the response and handling of this on the part of kw. Over all, as a strut, it's a good product. Just that it doesn't attach properly for an oem 964 upright - this is concerning when the manufacturer has been alerted to the issue and first response was "no it's not an issue", when it was being pointed out very specifically and then didn't offer to immediately remediate at their expense, which is, in the case of step down washers, a few dollars per car.
Anyway. Back to the latest suspension madness on the 92 Cab. All the suspension parts are in and I'm ready for tear down and rebuild. Guess who's product we aren't using....
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous issue I've ever seen, and could be the most ridiculous response from a manufacturer.
On another note, once I'm done w the the car in my garage, I'll be pulling the wheels off my car after a winter of driving on the aftermarket step down washers i had bought (because kw said they wouldn't send me theirs). My concern with the aftermarket step down washers is not knowing anything about the material they are made of, i have no way of knowing if the material is hard enough to stay properly torqued. So fairly soon after a good amount of hard driving and lots are temperature changes I'll be checking in on them and will report back.
Keep in mind. In my opinion, this is a safety issue. And due to it being a safety issue- this is my only concern relative to the response and handling of this on the part of kw. Over all, as a strut, it's a good product. Just that it doesn't attach properly for an oem 964 upright - this is concerning when the manufacturer has been alerted to the issue and first response was "no it's not an issue", when it was being pointed out very specifically and then didn't offer to immediately remediate at their expense, which is, in the case of step down washers, a few dollars per car.
Anyway. Back to the latest suspension madness on the 92 Cab. All the suspension parts are in and I'm ready for tear down and rebuild. Guess who's product we aren't using....
Last edited by Goughary; 02-17-2019 at 04:06 PM.
02-14-2019, 10:58 AM
#1146
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
02-14-2019, 04:10 PM
#1147
The latest installation manual notes that the spacer is included and it must be fitted for M12 bolts. Looks like they have taken notice.
http://docs.kwsuspension.de/ea-KWGFwEA-h68671018.pdf
http://docs.kwsuspension.de/ea-KWGFwEA-h68671018.pdf
02-16-2019, 09:10 PM
#1148
Race Car
Thread Starter
Nice. That means they are almost off my "don't ever buy this product" list.
Let's hope they start to just send them to anyone that calls that has these on their car. Needing the original receipt is bs. I understand why they require it- but it's just short sighted since it's a safety issue, and someone is going to call them at fault, since it is their fault that the washers needed to be supplied in the first place.
Anyway- on to the fun stuff.
Let's hope they start to just send them to anyone that calls that has these on their car. Needing the original receipt is bs. I understand why they require it- but it's just short sighted since it's a safety issue, and someone is going to call them at fault, since it is their fault that the washers needed to be supplied in the first place.
Anyway- on to the fun stuff.
02-16-2019, 09:17 PM
#1149
Race Car
Thread Starter
Tore down the 92 cab today.
Installed poly rack bushings and a rothsport steering brace...
And one rs tie rod:
And had the springs mounted. I don't touch springs- i don't do them often enough to warrant buying the proper tools- and without the proper tools, it's really stupid to play around with springs. Sooooo, that's my suggestion, for anyone that owns or is apt to buy cheep spring compressors- throw them away, and pay a shop to mount your springs.
We went with H&R sport springs - originally we were going to do struts, but when i received the car we found he had b6 bilsteins already, so since we are sticking with a fairly compliant setup, we did new springs and allocated the budget to things like RS inner tie rods...much better bang for the buck- relative to how the car will be used.
Installed poly rack bushings and a rothsport steering brace...
And one rs tie rod:
And had the springs mounted. I don't touch springs- i don't do them often enough to warrant buying the proper tools- and without the proper tools, it's really stupid to play around with springs. Sooooo, that's my suggestion, for anyone that owns or is apt to buy cheep spring compressors- throw them away, and pay a shop to mount your springs.
We went with H&R sport springs - originally we were going to do struts, but when i received the car we found he had b6 bilsteins already, so since we are sticking with a fairly compliant setup, we did new springs and allocated the budget to things like RS inner tie rods...much better bang for the buck- relative to how the car will be used.
03-03-2019, 12:02 AM
#1150
Race Car
Thread Starter
Some teasers on the engine Peter Dawe is designing for the Alabama car...(think back to the first one in this thread)
Peter Dawe has been fantastic. Truely a magician...can't wait to get this on the road.
Still don't know how the hell he is going to mate the 993rs intake stacks to the oem intake manifold...but he just smiled and said "i just...and then...., we do that all the time. Works great" "otherwise you have to go to varioram and that's just not necessary for what we want to accomplish"
Notice the way the heads were machines for the much larger intake and exhaust valves. The fittment of the exhaust valves increases the flow dramatically. Beautiful. It's hard to tell in the photos, but when you see them against the oem heads (we compared today), you see how much more open they are and how much better this should breath. Pistons were machined this week, compression ratio is set...and the RS cams are back from the grinder, so all should get buttoned up soon.
Suspension part 2 is in, Bbi uprights are here and that'll all get done as well. Going back to a stock front sway to play with that- dial in a little more oversteer. Bilstein struts were custom ordered with custom valving. Rear strut towers and rear swaybar supports will be reinforced, and though i didn't see the trans today, my understanding is that has arrived from rebuild as well. Steel synchros installed and planetary gear welded and full rebuild...
The details in this motor are too many to list, but it's been amazing to follow the progress and redesign of what was a good motor into what is a great motor...
If you have the time and desire to do this the right way...Dawes is a great shop and the expertise is very rare. Amazing what designing a few 935, 962 and 964 cup cars (andial) will do for a bit of an education....aside from the myriad of other porsche race motor development he's done over the years...regardless...I've been very impressed with how much 964 specific design experience he has...lots of fun when we get out there swapping old race stories and bantering 964...
Anyway...this is going to be 300hp approx at the wheels with a lot more torque, but if all goes well, will still be easy to drive around town. So let's see. Another month or two and we should be on the road.
Oh- but the exhaust hasn't been designed yet...so will it be another month? Or five? Vediamo.
Peter Dawe has been fantastic. Truely a magician...can't wait to get this on the road.
Still don't know how the hell he is going to mate the 993rs intake stacks to the oem intake manifold...but he just smiled and said "i just...and then...., we do that all the time. Works great" "otherwise you have to go to varioram and that's just not necessary for what we want to accomplish"
Notice the way the heads were machines for the much larger intake and exhaust valves. The fittment of the exhaust valves increases the flow dramatically. Beautiful. It's hard to tell in the photos, but when you see them against the oem heads (we compared today), you see how much more open they are and how much better this should breath. Pistons were machined this week, compression ratio is set...and the RS cams are back from the grinder, so all should get buttoned up soon.
Suspension part 2 is in, Bbi uprights are here and that'll all get done as well. Going back to a stock front sway to play with that- dial in a little more oversteer. Bilstein struts were custom ordered with custom valving. Rear strut towers and rear swaybar supports will be reinforced, and though i didn't see the trans today, my understanding is that has arrived from rebuild as well. Steel synchros installed and planetary gear welded and full rebuild...
The details in this motor are too many to list, but it's been amazing to follow the progress and redesign of what was a good motor into what is a great motor...
If you have the time and desire to do this the right way...Dawes is a great shop and the expertise is very rare. Amazing what designing a few 935, 962 and 964 cup cars (andial) will do for a bit of an education....aside from the myriad of other porsche race motor development he's done over the years...regardless...I've been very impressed with how much 964 specific design experience he has...lots of fun when we get out there swapping old race stories and bantering 964...
Anyway...this is going to be 300hp approx at the wheels with a lot more torque, but if all goes well, will still be easy to drive around town. So let's see. Another month or two and we should be on the road.
Oh- but the exhaust hasn't been designed yet...so will it be another month? Or five? Vediamo.
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HiWind (11-02-2020)
03-07-2019, 10:59 PM
#1152
Dumb question - I'm about to go w/ a Bilstein/Eibach refresh for a '91 C2...are new mounts a necessity or will the new struts/shocks swap right in? The shop I'm working with keeps pushing for new Rennline mounts and I think it's seems like possible overkill for what is a daily driver.
03-08-2019, 10:38 AM
#1153
Race Car
Thread Starter
Yes you can use the original mounts.
The oem front mounts are very good. So unless you need the added value of more camber adjustment, you should stick with those.
For the rear, the oem mounts are fine. There is value in replacing them with new oem mounts. And there is more value in going to a monoball top hat in the rear. But, the downside is added noise (minimal) and they will also need care and attention earlier than a new set of oem.
All that said, if you simply reuse the mounts you have, you will be fine. It's a bit tighter feeling with the rear monoballs, but that only really shows up under hard loads- so for a daily/around town and sometimes sporty driving- oem is functional. You will get enough bang for the buck out of the struts and springs regardless.
I had bilstein/eibach on my car with the oem mounts for years. It's a good combo. That said, now having driven the same setup w h&r sport springs, which are similar in rates to the eibach, i prefer them to the eibach with the bilstein b6.
The oem front mounts are very good. So unless you need the added value of more camber adjustment, you should stick with those.
For the rear, the oem mounts are fine. There is value in replacing them with new oem mounts. And there is more value in going to a monoball top hat in the rear. But, the downside is added noise (minimal) and they will also need care and attention earlier than a new set of oem.
All that said, if you simply reuse the mounts you have, you will be fine. It's a bit tighter feeling with the rear monoballs, but that only really shows up under hard loads- so for a daily/around town and sometimes sporty driving- oem is functional. You will get enough bang for the buck out of the struts and springs regardless.
I had bilstein/eibach on my car with the oem mounts for years. It's a good combo. That said, now having driven the same setup w h&r sport springs, which are similar in rates to the eibach, i prefer them to the eibach with the bilstein b6.
03-08-2019, 11:50 AM
#1154
Racer
Tore down the 92 cab today.
Installed poly rack bushings and a rothsport steering brace...
Attachment 1300502
Attachment 1300503
And one rs tie rod:
Attachment 1300505
And had the springs mounted. I don't touch springs- i don't do them often enough to warrant buying the proper tools- and without the proper tools, it's really stupid to play around with springs. Sooooo, that's my suggestion, for anyone that owns or is apt to buy cheep spring compressors- throw them away, and pay a shop to mount your springs.
Attachment 1300506
We went with H&R sport springs - originally we were going to do struts, but when i received the car we found he had b6 bilsteins already, so since we are sticking with a fairly compliant setup, we did new springs and allocated the budget to things like RS inner tie rods...much better bang for the buck- relative to how the car will be used.
Installed poly rack bushings and a rothsport steering brace...
Attachment 1300502
Attachment 1300503
And one rs tie rod:
Attachment 1300505
And had the springs mounted. I don't touch springs- i don't do them often enough to warrant buying the proper tools- and without the proper tools, it's really stupid to play around with springs. Sooooo, that's my suggestion, for anyone that owns or is apt to buy cheep spring compressors- throw them away, and pay a shop to mount your springs.
Attachment 1300506
We went with H&R sport springs - originally we were going to do struts, but when i received the car we found he had b6 bilsteins already, so since we are sticking with a fairly compliant setup, we did new springs and allocated the budget to things like RS inner tie rods...much better bang for the buck- relative to how the car will be used.
