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+1 the rear of an 993 yum but the front bleh. I think people are going to want the look of the 911 design with the standing headlights. In 5 years we going to read this again and see how it went with the prices.
cobalt - I agree on all your points and I too believe that the spread between the 964 and 993 has narrowed considerably.
Of course we are on the 964 forum so I would suggest that the perspective would be different on the 993 forum.
993 owners will always point out that theirs is the LAST of the air cooled.
10 years ago when I bought my 964 I paid over CAD$40k and then spent another $6k to fix some things and to make her perfect. At that time I could have purchased a well sorted 993 for the same price.
For years I did not tell anyone how much I spent because I would always get a comment that I could have bought a 993 for that price and that the 993 was a better car.
Well truthfully I was never attracted to the 993 mainly because of the look of the car.
Don't like the front or the back end treatment. Felt that it strayed too far from the classic Porsche look that I liked.
964
SC
993
996
To me the 993 looks more like the 996 and the 964 looks more like the older Porsche.
I guess the question is what one considers Nicer. I had the option of jumping into the 993 instead of the 964 and I would take a 964 hands down every day of the week. If I wanted my sports car to be more of a GT I would take my 928GTS over one. IMO the 964 is the ultimate air cooled 911. I prefer the looks the feel and the overall interaction. What makes a 993 nicer? Looks are subjective. The 6 speed box offers little over the 5 speed. The varioram is a nice touch but my C2 has more HP than a varioram 993 and it is far harder to increase the power of them.
They are both great cars one is not necessarily nicer than the other. If either is well sorted it is an exceptional ride if not they can drive like a truck. Under the skin there are a lot of similarities and although the 993 has some improvements that the 964 could use it is easily upgraded.
BTW I never said the 993 was loosing value I am sure it will increase but it would appear the 964 is appreciating at faster rate.
I don't see the 993 as more of a GT car than the 964. The feel is nearly identical so it really comes down to looks. Some prefer the 964, some prefer the 993. I would say like optioned/condition/mileage NA 993 vs NA 964 would sell for about even money today. The 964 has risen substantially faster lately because it was undervalued for so long. Now they are selling for where they should have been all along. I expect them to continue to appreciate at about even pace in the next few years.
I love the looks of the 964 for the original fenders, it's a true 911 shape but you can't dismiss the 6 speed gearbox, hydraulic valves, stiffer shell, bigger brakes, more HP and rear independent suspension of the 993.
I think what we've seen is a previously "undervalued" model in the 964 catching up to its younger sibling. 993 will always be the last air cooled 911, but the gap will get narrower. I prefer my 964, and there are many that like the 993. I think all else being equal ( condition, miles) that a 964 will be as valuable or slightly less than a 993.
I love the looks of the 964 for the original fenders, it's a true 911 shape but you can't dismiss the 6 speed gearbox, hydraulic valves, stiffer shell, bigger brakes, more HP and rear independent suspension of the 993.
Well actually to me I do dismiss the "6 speed gearbox, hydraulic valves, stiffer shell, bigger brakes, more HP and rear independent suspension of the 993" because 1) I prefer the 5 speed as in the speeds that I can travel at I never get out of 4th gear let alone get into 5th gear (the cops around here will impound for speeding over 40km (24mph) above speed limit) and for the other improvements they really don't mean much to me as again I drive along like a senior citizen.
I used to drive like a maniac but now with the amount of speed enforcement and artificially low speed limits ..........
Almost every day that I drive my 964 I will be "raced" by a Honda Civic and the Civic will race right by me. I'm sure there are lots of post on the Honda boards congratulating themselves on how they blew away a Porsche 911.
So to me the looks is solely what it is all about. Sad and shallow but true.
I guess the question is what one considers Nicer. I had the option of jumping into the 993 instead of the 964 and I would take a 964 hands down every day of the week. If I wanted my sports car to be more of a GT I would take my 928GTS over one. IMO the 964 is the ultimate air cooled 911. I prefer the looks the feel and the overall interaction. What makes a 993 nicer? Looks are subjective. The 6 speed box offers little over the 5 speed. The varioram is a nice touch but my C2 has more HP than a varioram 993 and it is far harder to increase the power of them.
They are both great cars one is not necessarily nicer than the other. If either is well sorted it is an exceptional ride if not they can drive like a truck. Under the skin there are a lot of similarities and although the 993 has some improvements that the 964 could use it is easily upgraded.
BTW I never said the 993 was loosing value I am sure it will increase but it would appear the 964 is appreciating at faster rate.
Well said. 5 years ago when I bought my 964 C2 I was looking only at 993's until one of my old detailing clients had a stable of 964s which he loves more than 993s ( this guy also owns a 73 RS and a 993 RS ) After driving several 964s I fell in love and decided thats what I wanted. The icing on the cake was that I was planning on spending 40k on a 993 C2S but ended up spending $17.5 k on a 2 owner 964 with only 49k on it. My 964 is much more raw and feels like a perfect blend of classic 911 with more than enough grunt to be fun. I drive my friends varioram 993 C4 which has the same suspension and lightweight flywheel and fabspeed headers as mine but its still a world of difference. The 993 is way more GT like. Its very nice and looks great from behind but I still prefer the 964. That being said if someone wants to give me 60k for my car hit me up!!! The days of the cheap 964 are over which is nice because it keeps the kids from buggering them up.
Personally I would like the 964 values to go down,
after all it is just an old car.
Having said that, after driving a proper 911 (86) for too many years and miles,
I bought a 993. Tried to like it for two years, but couldn't.
In my opinion a 993 is a 996 with an air cooled engine.
Rubber in the tie rods? wtf?
The 964 is the answer.
I have a particular disdain for 993's as it kept me from a 964.
Am quite pleased with my modern 911 the 964, of course it is not a proper 911
but whatever. It drives like a modern car unlike the pre 86 911.
Your results may vary...but they are wrong
No doubt about it. The 964 has crept up to 993 and in some cases surpased it. It could very well continue to do so.
Yeah, the 993 drives a little nicer, has great curves and is the last air cooled 911, but the 964 has the classic 911 headlights which the market has now gone crazy for.
When you look at it, a 964 has ABS and coil spring suspension. It is a classic 911 owner's dream.
Will be interesting to see where it goes.
future price comparisons between low mile 993/964 turbos and 993/964RS models will be entertaining.
Which series will end up being worth the most? Cant really say for sure.
While the 993 can claim the "last air cooled" monicker the 964 is the last and best classic 911. The market will be what it will be, but I am glad I have two 964's in my garage where they share space with my early cars. Porsche went through some design "fashion" influences with the 993 and 996 which have not aged well. That may well be natural when transitioning from iconic styling that has stood the test of time and continues to impress.
I feel privileged to be the caretaker of my 964's and have no longing for a 993 but I am glad there are those that do.
I it's not a casuality the fact that Singer chose tha 964's platform to make the "ultimate" 911... It would have been much easier for them to work on 993s, from which they picked the engine and transmission.
I it's not a casuality the fact that Singer chose tha 964's platform to make the "ultimate" 911... It would have been much easier for them to work on 993s, from which they picked the engine and transmission.
I think he meant the kinematic suspension which is something you either like or don't. It has its definite advantages assuming you have someone capable of setting it up properly. The old school swing arms are not the best design but far less complicated and expensive to deal with but it also retains a feel and character that is reminiscent to the old school 911 and that is what I miss when driving a 993. There are a lot of attributes the 993 has that the 964 could have used depending on intended purpose. A combination of both cars IMO makes the ideal 911. Obviously Singer figured that out. I am using many 993 parts in my 964 widebody build to build my ultimate dream 964 using parts that Porsche should have IMO used initially and probably would have saved them $$ instead of having multiple variations of the same part.
When I say the 993 is more GT it is because the 993 began the real swing towards marketing the car to the customer and reducing manufacturing costs instead of building the true sports car they envisioned. Items like rubber in the tie rods, kinematic suspension, hydraulic lifters, upgraded stereo, fancy litronic headlights and smother flowing lines were all designed to make a more relaxed and comfortable ride marketed for the average consumer and less for the enthusiast who could care less about most of them. In essence they began to engineer out the raw sports car and began the swing towards a civilized performance car.
Don't get me wrong there are pros and cons to both cars. There is a clear divide in the philosophy behind building their cars wedged between the two. The 993 was a bold step and a change in direction in order to save a floundering company. It had to happen to allow the company to survive and bridged the gap to the inevitable change over to the water cooled 911.
As far as values. I see the handful of 964's left surpassing the myriad of 993's in price for many reasons. I could be wrong but so far my predictions are not far off. Eventually they will all catch up and it will be a matter of preference but when I look at the market the swing appears to be towards the raw visceral experience vs the more civilized approach.
As someone said it will be interesting to see what the market eventually does and reading this in a year or two should prove to be entertaining.
Sadly I spent the afternoon walking around the NYC auto show with my son and neither of us could find much worth buying. Everything that caught my attention was from the past even the new ford Raptor is ruined I will have to keep mine. I do like the Z06 Vette but would rather have a GT3 with far less HP this new Z06 is a nice ride for a vette although too Ferrariesque and it is GT3 Money which I would take over it even if it has far less HP.
Of course the Ford I want I can't afford.
Lets face it by today's standards these cars are not all that fast have the same HP as a family wagon no amenities yet I would take either over most anything no matter what the price tag.
It will be interesting to see when the 964 turbo surpasses the 993 turbo in value. I can see it doing so because it has the classic "wide hips, narrow waist" profile that all 911 turbos had since their inception, unlike the 993 turbo, which was only modestly wider than a normally aspirated 993.
04-09-2015, 12:55 PM
