Going fast
11-03-2014, 05:28 PM
#17
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Also nice to see in that thread the admiration for the skills of the much missed Sean Edwards. Sean was a great friend to the 964RS community in the UK, a lot of whom benefited from his instruction. Here he is driving Ian Reynold's 964 cup at a trackday back in 2008. So easy, so smooth and getting the car 'floating'.
964RS Donnington 2008 PCGB - YouTube
964RS Donnington 2008 PCGB - YouTube
Nice clip that STeve. doesn't seems lie he is stressing the car at all does he
11-03-2014, 05:31 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
11-03-2014, 05:32 PM
#19
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This guy has same car with a little more power, better chassis setup, and skills. He also floats the car, its strangely confidence inspiring to ride with him, even fully sideways the car doesnt feel "out of shape", sadly he's been banned by Palmer from Brands track days.
Why was he banned Alex?
11-03-2014, 05:38 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Too fast, too sideways, too many times. Basically he would get black flagged every time he went, it was a standing joke with the marshalls. But he never spun, never caused any incidents for himself or other drivers. Bit unfair really.
That said I won't have done myself any favours after the last couple of visits.
That said I won't have done myself any favours after the last couple of visits.
11-03-2014, 05:40 PM
#21
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Too fast, too sideways, too many times. Basically he would get black flagged every time he went, it was a standing joke with the marshalls. But he never spun, never caused any incidents for himself or other drivers. Bit unfair really.
That said I won't have done myself any favours after the last couple of visits.
That said I won't have done myself any favours after the last couple of visits.
Yeah tough on him it seems they track days after all!
11-04-2014, 05:23 AM
#22
Three Wheelin'
While it's a bit off topic from Kai's OP, and I wasn't in the 964, the subject is track driving so I'll share the horror show for all to see, I have a good idea from the data of at least four things I did wrong - one being a general no no that was specifically disastrous with this particular platform under these circumstances, feel free to add your thoughts.
11-04-2014, 08:42 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Alex, it looked liked you were doing too many things at the same time. In particular, you start turning in and then change gear while only having one hand on the wheel and everything becomes rather loose.
The impact didn't sound too bad and the instructor grabbing the hand brake probably helped limit the damage. Hopefully, the C4 is good to bring on Saturday but if you have a problem let me know.
The impact didn't sound too bad and the instructor grabbing the hand brake probably helped limit the damage. Hopefully, the C4 is good to bring on Saturday but if you have a problem let me know.
11-04-2014, 01:51 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Alex, it looked liked you were doing too many things at the same time. In particular, you start turning in and then change gear while only having one hand on the wheel and everything becomes rather loose.
The impact didn't sound too bad and the instructor grabbing the hand brake probably helped limit the damage. Hopefully, the C4 is good to bring on Saturday but if you have a problem let me know.
The impact didn't sound too bad and the instructor grabbing the hand brake probably helped limit the damage. Hopefully, the C4 is good to bring on Saturday but if you have a problem let me know.
Data of the moment of truth: my knee is about to go down on the clutch (and stay there - oops) and you can see the longitudinal and lateral acceleration about to jump. This is me depressing the clutch and turning in at the same moment the ABS kicks in. Cause and effect is hard here but I think the clutch was the "last straw" triggering the ABS ,see explanation below, I may have got away with it other than that.
Compared to Jake at the same point - I've not done myself any favours as I'm a couple of mph faster but the total loss of deceleration when the abs kicks in doesnt help.
Finally you can see the ABS does start to give some deceleration on its own, but by then I've given up on it and started to pump the pedal - would of been better off waiting for the ABS tbh - maybe the different between gravel trap and tyre wall.
Defo a learning experience. I've heard from Abbey and the alignment is still spot on, so no structural damage. Phew.
Last edited by alexjc4; 11-04-2014 at 02:07 PM.
11-04-2014, 02:00 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
So:
Too fast for conditions (wetter than previous lap),
Absent mindedly reverting to the dry line in the wet
Wrong gear + aborted downshift +"sticky feet" and coasting with clutch in
Winding on more lock when already way past useful slip angle
Pumping the pedal with ABS - looks like the ABS was just waiting for the fronts to unlock and was about to save the day but I "took over" and pumped instead.
I had been trail braking into this "early apex" earlier in the day but that was a few mph less and in 3rd and unknowingly utilising an additional abs effect of the 4wd system which diverts enough power to the front to help prevent lockup. With the clutch in this cant happen.
What else?
Too fast for conditions (wetter than previous lap),
Absent mindedly reverting to the dry line in the wet
Wrong gear + aborted downshift +"sticky feet" and coasting with clutch in
Winding on more lock when already way past useful slip angle
Pumping the pedal with ABS - looks like the ABS was just waiting for the fronts to unlock and was about to save the day but I "took over" and pumped instead.
I had been trail braking into this "early apex" earlier in the day but that was a few mph less and in 3rd and unknowingly utilising an additional abs effect of the 4wd system which diverts enough power to the front to help prevent lockup. With the clutch in this cant happen.
What else?
11-04-2014, 02:06 PM
#26
Good work on starting to pump the brake, most people freeze and just keep it slammed on the floor. There was probably a point half way across the track that had you been in gear you may have been able to released the brake and make the corner on a coasting throttle - easy to say but very hard to do. More lock is never the answer but feels right at the time - anything but more lock cos if you do save it you then have to deal with the flick-back the other way which if you have 2x the lock needed is a bear to get on top of.
Props for posting the carnage - most crash vids end up deleted for ever!
(edit Alex beat me to it)
Props for posting the carnage - most crash vids end up deleted for ever!
(edit Alex beat me to it)
11-04-2014, 02:12 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
Good work on starting to pump the brake, most people freeze and just keep it slammed on the floor. There was probably a point half way across the track that had you been in gear you may have been able to released the brake and make the corner on a coasting throttle - easy to say but very hard to do. More lock is never the answer but feels right at the time - anything but more lock cos if you do save it you then have to deal with the flick-back the other way which if you have 2x the lock needed is a bear to get on top of.
Props for posting the carnage - most crash vids end up deleted for ever!
(edit Alex beat me to it)
Props for posting the carnage - most crash vids end up deleted for ever!
(edit Alex beat me to it)
Its important to look your mistakes in the eye I reckon. Though as you say somethings are easier said than done it the moment.
I have some other interesting "doing it right/wrong" side by side comparisons from the day with less spectacular results. I'll post em up latter.
11-04-2014, 02:51 PM
#28
I had a few similar moments to you at a recent snetterton day:
Excuse the ****ey slow driving but it was first time there and it was verry slippy but if you look at 4:20ish and 19:00 ish (same corner) I just kept locking up if I left the braking a few meters too late. I learnt at the end of the day that there is a bump there which was causing the fronts to lock which took a while for me to un-lock. Obviously much slower than yr situation but very similar scenario.
11-04-2014, 05:01 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
But I do crash rarely (200 incident free wet and dry laps at this track in the last 12months), so when I do, I want know why, feels like due diligence. Then care is needed not to learn the wrong the lessons - e.g. "I braked too late" or "the abs was at fault" etc.
I think was at the edge of the performance envelope of the car but some control inputs were faulty. I can tighten that loose nut and go faster