997Pilot

Looks like the 1991 sold pretty fast with that $75,000 price , there is a 1993 here in the classifieds with 160,000 miles and asking $70,000 wonder if it sells near that being they are so rare.

https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1137781

Lorenzoh

what makes you think a ‘93 is “so rare”? Simply because of the production numbers? Rare means it’s something different. Buying in to this myth that the last couple years of production were any better simply based on the amount built is shortsighted. A ‘92,3 or 4 have very little difference mechanically and the service history is a much greater factor in determining its worth rather than simply how many were built in a certain year.

Spyerx

mine is for sale (the g) :-)

cobalt

Sorry I love the older cars but I would always pay up for a 964. The torsion bar ride and lack of safety equipment kills it for me in today's world.

I guess you have never worked on these? The driving experience is similar I won't deny that, however there were many changes made to the 964 over its life. Significant changes beginning in 91 and continued through to 94. No doubt the changes became less significant by 94 but the improvements were numerous and obvious from the underside as well as topside. Changes to mirrors, tub, suspension, wheels, transmission, brakes (C2) along with a lot of little parts that earlier cars had TSB's issued to change all exist. If I had two identical original 964's side by side and one was a 90 and one a 93 I would pay up for the 93 hands down. I am not saying the earlier cars were bad in any way just the later cars were slightly better in ways I appreciate. I have a 90 now completely converted and a 93. It took me a while but the changes became quite apparent when disassembling the 90 side by side with the 93.

I may publish a book like George Hussy did for the 914 one day. Maybe it will change the way people understand these cars.

Also when it comes to any Porsche from this period people want the last of the model as much as they can. Just like my 93 928GTS which is very nearly identical to a 95 928GTS but the 95 will almost always command more money that the 93, just the way it is.

Marine Blue

Anthony with regards to the differences between the earlier and later 964’s, cosmetics aside I have to wonder if most of the issues and updates haven’t already been performed on most of the earlier cars to bring them up to the later cars? The rear suspension update is clearly one area that will not change on the older cars although I’m curious what the actual differences are and why Porsche made the change part way through production.

Also can you elaborate on the tub differences (other than rear suspension already noted).

mooty

agree with cobalt and the ongoing changing in porsche is common, not just with 964
and the changes are not readily announced by porsche
while I don't have 964 knowledge like cobalt, I have a lot of background in GT3/RS and there are a lot more differenced b/n the variants then ppl think.

pcarfan944

yeah no, production numbers determine much of how rare a car is and a 1993 964 is definitely a rare car.

Trader220

1. (of an event, situation, or condition) not occurring very often
   • (of a thing) not found in large numbers and consequently of interest or value."the jellyfish tree, one of the rarest plants on earth"synonyms:unusual, uncommon, unfamiliar, out of the ordinary, atypical, singular, remarkable, recherché, special, precious"a collector of rare stamps and coins"
     • unusually good or remarkable."he plays with rare strength and sensitivity"synonyms:exceptional, outstanding, unparalleled, peerless, matchless, unique, unequaled, incomparable, unrivaled, inimitable, beyond compare, beyond comparison, without equal, second to none, unsurpassed, surpassing, exquisite, superb, consummate, superior, superlative, first-class, first-rate, special, choice, excellent, very fine; More

F

Lorenzoh

I guess my definition of “rare” differs from what you guys think. From a practical standpoint, as a driver and also taking value into consideration...I see very little rarity from one year to the other and I’ve driven them all. The mechanical differences only become apparent when pushing these cars to the limit for extended periods. Something I’d guess that very few here have ever done. Biggest difference is the head gasket issue and most 964s still on the road have had that fixed.

Id much rather have an early car that’s been maintained well, driven and not abused over a ‘93 or ‘94 low mile “rare” garage queen.

-nick

Porsche published a Service Information Technik manual for every year of the 964, which describes model year changes. This isn’t a secret. There are many changes over the production.

cobalt

On the contrary. I have 8 cars I drive a total of about 30k miles a year some get driven more than others but all are driven as they were intended to when I do. There are many changes made to the 964 to fix nit picky issues the earlier cars had and a lot cannot be retrofitted or be too costly to unless needed. My cars are serviced based on miles and yearly. All fluids flushed at a min of 2500 miles or every 2 years whether needed or not. I inspect each car after long drives for damage and clean out road debris that easily accumulates after only a few miles. If anything breaks it gets fixed. Things that don't operate are because I removed them, They are started and brought up to temperature even if I don't go for long drives regularly. The 964's have 38k, 61k, and 83k miles my 928GTS has 66k miles I have put at least 15k miles on each and every one over the years. Cosmetically they are all 298 out of 300 point concours cars when I don't prep them for shows. Higher when I do. I enjoy taking them out and going for drives as much as I can but since Ilko moved away it has been less enjoyable but found a new crew to go on drives with. I even tracked one or two for many years and that was pushing them as hard as I was capable.


I have a relatively decent understanding of these cars and have driven them amongst most every other Porsche you can think of. From stock to modded to completely transformed race prepped. Unless we are talking, turbo or the 3.6/3.8RS these are all a similar experience except for the differences between 2 and AWD. However there are numerous improvements made over the years. This as Mooty aptly pointed out has been an ongoing approach to building these cars since day 1. We see lots of very early cars including some 901's around me and many of them can be different from one serial number to the next back then. However the 964 has an extensive list of changes that will take far more time than i have to list.

The most apparent other than the newer non problematic DMF and revised heads and cylinders is the change to the rear shock towers. Some quick examples off the top of my head that don't even scratch the surface but just to name a few are: the rear deck lid lock changed from the round spring type to the latch type and later included a micro switch for the alarm & light vs a pin switch, Indents on the side that hold the rocker panel in place were increased, door latch mechanism changed to allow both locking and unlocking of the doors without power, rear bumper supports reinforced to prevent cracking of the rear quarter panels, A micro switch was added for the front latch to control the lights and alarm vs a pin switch these were usually the result of battery drain, Speakers no longer used a crossover in the door panels which had issues and failed. Revised wiper arms that worked at speed, R134 vs R22 freon and improved compressor and condenser. Aero vs flag mirrors, Revised front wheel hubs, C2's received 4 vs 2 pot rear calipers. Rear tail light seals changed to prevent rust from forming. Revised plumbing of the fuel lines, etc etc etc.


I can go on like this for pages and this is just the body. Some are more significant than others although were done for a reason and those reasons were improvements many of which were carried through to the 993 or changed again.

Without a doubt a well maintained car should come first but why would you say a garage queen with low miles is not a well maintained car? This is a fallacy and a well maintained car is a well maintained car irrespective of mileage.


PS: we are finding many more early cars without gasket issues addressed than we could have imagined. I saw an early 89 with the original problematic DMF not long ago. So saying everything has been addressed by now is an assumption I would be careful making.

Trader220

Cobalt, I am always amazed at your knowledge and glad you're always willing to share it here. Thank you.

Do you go to Hershey?

ak432

Clean 964's are getting harder and harder to find. It took me a while to find one that checked most of my boxes. I think when you find one that you really like, it's foolish to hold things up over +/- 5k. There is so much variability in how each car presents and the service history that would make it pretty difficult to replicate the same scenario. These cars are popular for a reason. They bridge the gap between vintage / classic cars and modern porsches not to mention the build quality and overall design.

kkswow12

again, cobalt, you must be batman....yes many thanks for enriching the collective knowledge here, i look forward to getting smarter every day...

cobalt

Thanks guys but as time goes on you pick up on these things it is nothing special. There are many like me who focus on different models. The 928, 944,968 then the early long nose cars and 356's that have people just as informed. I prefer the 964 so I have accumulated more knowledge and continue to learn each day. Although I am around the others as well I find the 964 to be special but would love to own them all and many others as well.

I am supposed to head to Hershey Saturday. I drove my turbo out last year and my C2 the year before with Ilko but the ride sucks. I am supposed to go and hang out with the guys from SOUL exhaust and Apex Moterworks this year but the weather doesn't look great. Might just bring my truck and sell some parts assuming I go.