997ajk

First let me just begin by saying that I live in Canada, and have done many transactions both in-person and online. Sold quite few cars. I've recently been in a situation where I was completing a transaction with a private citizen in the US, and I want to get some feedback on what was being asked of me. It might work diferently in the US (although I don't believe so) but here's the sitiuation:

I just won this car on Ebay and paid the $1000 deposit.

Vehicle: 1991 Porsche 911 Carrera 2 / Carrera 4 (WP0AB2961MS410253) (btw. carfax is clean but autocheck shows 2 accidents on the car)Porsche : 911 964 in Porsche | eBay Motors


When the seller contacted me to say that the deposit was recieved we began to discuss the terms of the sale and how to proceed with the transaction. He provided me with a listing of local shops to have the PPI done and I said that I would get back to him the following day.

We agreed that the PPI will be preformed and I indicated a shop I wanted to have the PPI done (pelican recomendations) and he agreed he would bring the vehicle there and complete the PPI.
Part of our ongoing discussions concerned the transfer of the vehicle across the border. I sent him the relevant information for the customs officials required and said that either he or I would need to fax the documentation including photocopy of the title to customs and form (sort of like a bill of sale) 72 hours prior to vehicle export - this was the customs requirement, as I do not want to spend 3 days for customs to clear the vehicle .All I got from him was that title would not be turned over until the full balance was wired or cheque be mailed to him for clearing.

I explained to him in our ongoing discussions that I would not be wiring the money, instead I would be providing a bank draft upon viewing the vehicle and making sure that all was clear, handing it over to him. He kept insisting that I wire the money and that the bank draft is not verifiable, and requires 5 days to clear. I explained to him that bank drafts are certified by the bank and that I would be happy to go with him to a branch to verify the funds were there prior to him turning over the keys and my driving off with the car and the title. He was insisting that I wire the funds otherwise I would not be getting the title.
Copy of the title will not be shown/faxed until I (again) wired the money in full or mailed the draft and it clears.

We were at a stalemate. I needed a copy of the title (not even the original) to be faxed to customs so that I could cross with the vehicle and he wasn't willing to fax it to them until I turned over the full balance. I asked then that my deposit be refunded because I was not comfortable with him having the car, the full payment and me just a couple of emails saying that this transaction was going to take place.

I'm not sure if this is common practice in Porsche/US car circles, to just wire the money? Wait till drafts clear? Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Adrian

Pic of the car:

BigMikeATL

I think that the seller doesn't know you and he doesn't want his car making off to Canada before he is sure that he has the money. Find a dealer near the border and offer them a small fee to mediate the deal so that the seller can see what needs to take place.

Personally I wouldn't let my car go without full payment. I would send a copy of the title and write on the copy that it is a COPY FOR CANADIAN CUSTOMS PENDING SALE OF VEHICLE.

Jacke2c

Every time, the seller wanted funds in full. It is a matter of trust. If you were in the same town, maybe, but even in another state, I had to wait until my certified check cleared, and funds were in his account (sometimes, depending on the bank, it can take up to 5 days.) I know it is a hassle. I bought a 49 dodge power wagon from California and it took five days for the check to clear (certified, Fed-Ex'ed) and another seven days to receive shipment to Mississippi. That was in the states. Once the car goes to Canada, if you were unscrupulous (you are not!) you could put a stop payment on other type of funds and he would have a hassle of dealing with two governments trying to settle his claim. However, for you, I would check e-bay policies about purchase protection. Best of luck, I understand the hassle.

njansenv

The faxed copy of the title is not proof of ownership, AFAIK there is zero risk to him to accomodate your need to have a COPY of the title sent to customs. Can you wire the money when you view the car and decide to purchase it? Or go to a bank with the owner and wire it while at the bank?

FeralComprehension

When I bought mine (also off ebay) I got around this issue by paying cash. The seller was unknown to me and also in a hurry (leaving the country as soon as the deal was done) so neither of us wanted to screw around with verifications, etc....

Would it be possible for you to prearrange the transfer and then authorize it by phone once you had eyes on the car and a solid PPI? That way the transfer would occur with you right there with the seller; he'd get verification from the bank and could turn over the (original) title.

Finally, I live just south of Birmingham- if you need local facilitation and I can help, please don't hesitate.

Luck!

xeps

I bought my 89 C4 off ebay as well, and had it shipped to Canada.

I wired the entire value and purchased the car, unseen, after a thorough PPI. Thankfully in my case, the shop which did the PPI was run by a reputable PCA member and he allowed the car to stay there while I arranged for transport. Had no problems getting it across the border.

Not that it really made a tangible difference, but having it at the shop made me feel a bit better about sending the cash.

vagluv

trust is always required on both sides of an ebay transaction. him not providing a copy of the title is strange, but unless i missed a statement to the contrary, there may be a lien on the car, and the bank may be holding the title. also, bank drafts are not commonly used here, and theyre rarely used by individuals (usually just in commercial transactions). you could go through an escrow service to mediate payment, but they arent cheap, and make sure you use one that is well known.

there was a thread here about how thorough that listing was just a week or two ago. congrats on the purchase, and good luck getting it there!

Vegas993

I wouldn't let a car go without payment in full. However, I also wouldn't have a problem sending customs a copy of the title. Really not the sellers fault, unfortunately their are a lot of scammers in the US and you have to careful about the way you conduct business, I wouldn't take it personal.

longhitv

Im in Canada and have brought a few cars in.
PM Me. Livingston Internation is a good shipper that looks after it all. Pick up, customs and delivery into Canada

That being said I always promised myself, anything over $10k into the USA, why not just fly down and do it all in cash.

Flights are cheap.

Baltic964Cab

Agree totally. If it is so important to you, fly down, get your PPI, and pay up. I know I would not let my car go without CASH in hand - No other option available. Dont you watch Pawn Stars? Rick Harrision's favorite saying: "Its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust anyone". You gotta pay if you wanna play.

DJF1

I would not let my car go either without full payment on hand. Fly down do the transaction and then drive it home the long way around to wait for the 3 days to elapse. too many scammers out there.

darth_vader

i looked at the car as well but did not bid after seeing the feedbacks
(all positive) but which indicated to me that this individual is a dealer
and is claiming to be a private seller.
he could also be a private seller with a heck of a private collection but it is not likely.
he is already listing another 911 and the feedback history shows that he has sold many cars on ebay.

a copy of the title with his name on it would have been my first requirement to even send a deposit. in the state of MI it is illegal to sell a car without having the title in one's name - unless you of course have a dealer license. i believe it is called curbstoning.

i do not know what a bank draft is vs a cashiers check but i do know that everything other than a wire transfer takes time to clear. but since he stated in his auction he would take a cashiers check as well, i cannot see where the problem is waiting for what you are providing him to clear vs a cashiers check.

sorry that it did not work out. but most replies here were correct - best to just fly / ride there and pay cash and handle everything on your way home.

kind regards

997ajk

Deal is off - I got the deposit back.

Regarding title/ownership:
-Seller claims to be selling for friend, and not to be a dealer.
-Title is in friends name and his wife.
-He requires the payment to his friend/wife account otherwise title or copy will not be produced
-was fine with paying after PPI was preformed

In Canada bank draft is not easily cancelable or refundable unless it is reported stolen to police (30days wait time) or original draft is produced. Draft is good as cash and can be verified by calling the bank. Reason for using it,its that it is free for me and offers better exchange rate. ($22k = $23.1k can )

Wire transfers are not instant and funds over $10k are flag and reviewed by FBI, and are held for up to 2 days. But I was open to this option, but I know seller would not release the car. Which now puts me in position of storing a car for next 2 days with the seller.

Cash was another option but from what I know about Detroit, I did not feel all that good about it.

darth_vader

selling for a friend ..... enough said - and good you got the deposit back in my book.

i do wires within US all the time - takes 15 mins normally.
now to Europe and from Europe always takes a few days.

tcsracing1

wire deposit only after receiving copy of title and drivers license.

if buying over the phone, have the car dropped off to a dealership for inspection at your sole expense. then you know it actually exisits and what the condition may be.

If you want the car, then pay the owner but agree that the car stays at the dealer until car carrier picks it up that way owner no longer has it in possession.
Have the dealer service the car while you wait for car carrier to pick it up.