CHEAP - Brand new replica Big Reds...
02-03-2012, 04:28 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Design 911 are a bit cheeky, all their prices don't include VAT. So the actual price is £478. Add adapters, decent pads, and discs and that'll be around £1000 please sir. Then you need to do the rears which will be the same again.
You could easily spend £1000 overhauling the front and rear standard rotors, pads and calipers - so spending twice that for the full front and rear big red 993 setup doesn't look like total extravagance
You could easily spend £1000 overhauling the front and rear standard rotors, pads and calipers - so spending twice that for the full front and rear big red 993 setup doesn't look like total extravagance
02-03-2012, 05:08 AM
#17
Burning Brakes
I've been thinking about this upgrade, I know it's something DavidRiley has done and 9M have recommended it to me. but I only do a couple of trackdays a year in the 964 so the expense isn't viable in the short term.....however, as part of an ongoing upgrade/mod to the car I'm acquiring parts and info when and where available within budget for a future overhaul/rebuild.
02-03-2012, 05:09 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Frank's Ok as he's got a C4, so they already had the 4-pot rear calipers. It's us early C2 guys that have to add the additional expense of a 4-pot rear caliper upgrade as well if we go to big reds on the front.
02-03-2012, 05:24 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
You'll be wanting something like this....[no affiliation]
http://www.fvd.de/de/en/Porsche-0/96...PORT_1_pc.html
02-03-2012, 08:08 AM
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
For the rears I have the bigger 4 pot ones being a C4 and all - so I'd just do the fronts?
02-03-2012, 08:13 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
02-03-2012, 08:17 AM
#22
Drifting
Thread Starter
I suppose the easy stuff is changing discs and pads as it can be done without disconnecting the callipers? Where as changing callipers must require bleeding the system?
02-03-2012, 08:40 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
It's pretty easy, if its just the fronts its 4 bolts, a screw and the pipe unions to undo. I'll happily give you a hand if you want, just give me a shout. Impact gun is handy for getting things undone, decent torque wrench to do em up again.
Yup the brakes will need bleeding as you will need to disconnect pipes - probably worth doing a flush and refill anyway in an advance of the Spa trip.
Yup the brakes will need bleeding as you will need to disconnect pipes - probably worth doing a flush and refill anyway in an advance of the Spa trip.
02-03-2012, 08:52 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Re the rears, if you look at Bill's page http://members.rennlist.com/1976c38/brakes.htm which gives all the variants fitted front and rear, looks like there are models that basically run with the big red fronts (or at least the big/mid 964 3.3 turbo size) and the similar sized rears as the 964 4 piston rears SO its not madness to leave the rears alone by any means. But if I was doing it I might be tempted with the 993 n/a rears with larger 30/34mm pistons and the stock or RS discs. If only so you've got nice new stuff all round.
02-03-2012, 09:05 AM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Design 911 are a bit cheeky, all their prices don't include VAT. So the actual price is £478. Add adapters, decent pads, and discs and that'll be around £1000 please sir. Then you need to do the rears which will be the same again.
You could easily spend £1000 overhauling the front and rear standard rotors, pads and calipers - so spending twice that for the full front and rear big red 993 setup doesn't look like total extravagance
You could easily spend £1000 overhauling the front and rear standard rotors, pads and calipers - so spending twice that for the full front and rear big red 993 setup doesn't look like total extravagance
From the advice I've seen on this forum (mostly from Bill) adding big reds/blacks to the front is best balanced by putting 993C2 calipers on the rear. These have bigger pistons than the 964 C4 (and late C2) rears. i.e. Frank would have to upgrade his rears too (but can still use standard rotors on the rear).
02-03-2012, 09:58 AM
#26
Re the rears, if you look at Bill's page http://members.rennlist.com/1976c38/brakes.htm which gives all the variants fitted front and rear, looks like there are models that basically run with the big red fronts (or at least the big/mid 964 3.3 turbo size) and the similar sized rears as the 964 4 piston rears SO its not madness to leave the rears alone by any means. But if I was doing it I might be tempted with the 993 n/a rears with larger 30/34mm pistons and the stock or RS discs. If only so you've got nice new stuff all round.
You will want to run 993 rear calipers which are identical to 964RS rear calipers on stock or 968M030 rear rotors w/ any of the big brake fronts
964Cup ran the big RS fronts w/ 30/34 rears and also dispensed w/ the p/v
02-03-2012, 11:13 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
I'm with you here. I think the standard brakes are pretty damn good and have always proved to be up to the job on track with the right pads and fluid. OK, I can't brake as late as a big brake equipped car and might need to come in a lap or two earlier to rest them but the consumables are much cheaper on standard brakes. I'll go through more rotors and pads than a big brake car but the cost of that upgrade buys a lot of standard rotors, track pads and fluid. So it's never really added up in my eyes.
From the advice I've seen on this forum (mostly from Bill) adding big reds/blacks to the front is best balanced by putting 993C2 calipers on the rear. These have bigger pistons than the 964 C4 (and late C2) rears. i.e. Frank would have to upgrade his rears too (but can still use standard rotors on the rear).
From the advice I've seen on this forum (mostly from Bill) adding big reds/blacks to the front is best balanced by putting 993C2 calipers on the rear. These have bigger pistons than the 964 C4 (and late C2) rears. i.e. Frank would have to upgrade his rears too (but can still use standard rotors on the rear).
Given funds of course factory (or race) spec is way to go....but like you Steve I've not have brake probs on track and whilst I've got the big blacks up front I run the later C2 4-pot rears with rear discs that aren't criss drilled. Like you I found the biggest improvement, with standard calipers, was upgraded pads and fluid.
02-03-2012, 11:57 AM
#28
Drifting
Thread Starter
Just costed everything up and shopped around for best prices including VAT and P+P:
Discs - Type911 - £ 543.60:
Front 993 OEM cross drilled Rear 964 OEM cross drilled 543.60.
Pads - eBay - £ 188.48:
EBC Yellow Stuff 993 Turbo front.
EBC Yellow Stuff 964 rear.
Calipers - Design911 - £ 399.00:
Design Tek Big Reds front.
Total: £ 1131.08
What am I missing - mounting for front callipers, where can I find?
What do you guys think, reasonable-ish price and set up?
God this forum is distracting - I recon we'd all be so much more productive if weren't members which would intern give us more car funds... back to work!
If I could take you up on the offer I would bite the bullet - wouldn't wanna face labour costs on top! Besides as you say 'any excuse to get the finder nails dirty' and chat Porsches with a mate!
Thanks for the advice Steve - always making sense to me 
Cheers Bill!
I think this option makes the most sense to me both financially and for my application - besides worse case (and it just seems all positive from your experience) I could upgrade rears later.
Discs - Type911 - £ 543.60:
Front 993 OEM cross drilled Rear 964 OEM cross drilled 543.60.
Pads - eBay - £ 188.48:
EBC Yellow Stuff 993 Turbo front.
EBC Yellow Stuff 964 rear.
Calipers - Design911 - £ 399.00:
Design Tek Big Reds front.
Total: £ 1131.08
What am I missing - mounting for front callipers, where can I find?
What do you guys think, reasonable-ish price and set up?
God this forum is distracting - I recon we'd all be so much more productive if weren't members which would intern give us more car funds... back to work!
It's pretty easy, if its just the fronts its 4 bolts, a screw and the pipe unions to undo. I'll happily give you a hand if you want, just give me a shout. Impact gun is handy for getting things undone, decent torque wrench to do em up again.
Yup the brakes will need bleeding as you will need to disconnect pipes - probably worth doing a flush and refill anyway in an advance of the Spa trip.
Yup the brakes will need bleeding as you will need to disconnect pipes - probably worth doing a flush and refill anyway in an advance of the Spa trip.
I'm with you here. I think the standard brakes are pretty damn good and have always proved to be up to the job on track with the right pads and fluid. OK, I can't brake as late as a big brake equipped car and might need to come in a lap or two earlier to rest them but the consumables are much cheaper on standard brakes. I'll go through more rotors and pads than a big brake car but the cost of that upgrade buys a lot of standard rotors, track pads and fluid. So it's never really added up in my eyes.
From the advice I've seen on this forum (mostly from Bill) adding big reds/blacks to the front is best balanced by putting 993C2 calipers on the rear. These have bigger pistons than the 964 C4 (and late C2) rears. i.e. Frank would have to upgrade his rears too (but can still use standard rotors on the rear).
From the advice I've seen on this forum (mostly from Bill) adding big reds/blacks to the front is best balanced by putting 993C2 calipers on the rear. These have bigger pistons than the 964 C4 (and late C2) rears. i.e. Frank would have to upgrade his rears too (but can still use standard rotors on the rear).
The 964RS, 964 3.3t & 964 3.6t all run big front brakes w/ smallish rear brakes, the 964RS rears are exactly the same externally as 964 rear but the pistons of the 964RS rear are 30/34 instead on 964 28/30. Note that the 964t rears while 30/34 as on the RS have a different width and o/s so cannot be used on a 964 w/ 964 turbo trailing arms.
You will want to run 993 rear calipers which are identical to 964RS rear calipers on stock or 968M030 rear rotors w/ any of the big brake fronts
964Cup ran the big RS fronts w/ 30/34 rears and also dispensed w/ the p/v
You will want to run 993 rear calipers which are identical to 964RS rear calipers on stock or 968M030 rear rotors w/ any of the big brake fronts
964Cup ran the big RS fronts w/ 30/34 rears and also dispensed w/ the p/v
That's the fun with this rabbit hole of upgrades, it goes on and on once you start.....my point was that for an occassional use track car there's no real need to upgrade the rear calipers Frank has as I don't think many of us push to the absolute limit on a trackday as there's no benefit, there's no prize after all....and I for one don't have the skill
Last edited by Porsche964FP; 02-03-2012 at 01:50 PM.
02-03-2012, 01:36 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Personally, I use Hawk blues which I buy direct from the US. I would say these are a much better track pad than Pagid Blue but not as long lasting as the Pagid Yellows. However, they work out at only just over £100 per set for the standard size that are used in 964 fronts and rears (my rears are now 4 pots like your C4). The Hawks also create a lot of nasty dusty but that doesn't bother me as they're only used with my tatty track wheels.
02-03-2012, 02:32 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
fvd do the adapters to mount the calipers - cheapest source I've seen - link already posted in this thread.
1 or 2 litres of fluid, something top spec like motul rbf600, high boiling point is the key, usually given in degF (~600+ is good).
Best add in the hard pipes between the flexible hose and the caliper, they're cheap from OPC and all to easy to munge when doing the job. I've got as pipe flaring tool and we could make up replacements fairly easily in a crisis but having factory replacements make things a bit less stressful.
Also get some braided brake lines if you haven't already got them, the old hoses will be on their last legs and everything is much easier if you can just cut the hoses and get a socket on the pipe fittings.
I'd go with boxeys suggested hawk blues (I've only had good experiences with EBC reds (old compound) on the datsun but they're similarly dusty and similar price so why deviate from tried and tested hawks)
Finally and just because of personal risk aversion I'd go plain rather than cross drilled discs, I've known drilled ones to crack in other applications under heavy abuse - I haven't seen too much of that reported on 964 applications but I've not looked. Maybe the experts on here have a view?
1 or 2 litres of fluid, something top spec like motul rbf600, high boiling point is the key, usually given in degF (~600+ is good).
Best add in the hard pipes between the flexible hose and the caliper, they're cheap from OPC and all to easy to munge when doing the job. I've got as pipe flaring tool and we could make up replacements fairly easily in a crisis but having factory replacements make things a bit less stressful.
Also get some braided brake lines if you haven't already got them, the old hoses will be on their last legs and everything is much easier if you can just cut the hoses and get a socket on the pipe fittings.
I'd go with boxeys suggested hawk blues (I've only had good experiences with EBC reds (old compound) on the datsun but they're similarly dusty and similar price so why deviate from tried and tested hawks)
Finally and just because of personal risk aversion I'd go plain rather than cross drilled discs, I've known drilled ones to crack in other applications under heavy abuse - I haven't seen too much of that reported on 964 applications but I've not looked. Maybe the experts on here have a view?