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964 TURBO or RS wanted... VALUES & PRODUCTION nos

 
Old 03-08-2011, 09:03 AM
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Porsche964FP
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Default 964 TURBO or RS wanted... VALUES & PRODUCTION nos

I have a relative who is interested in buying a Porsche that will maintain and may increase in value and that will be used for occasional track days...

This would be a long term car, that would happily only (potentially) sell when the market would be good.

Off the top of my head I am thinking of several cars:

964 Turbo 3.6
964 Turbo 3.6s
964 RS (What order are the most wanted variations of RS and why? And what are the variations?)
993 Rs

1. What are the production numbers for each?
2. How has the market fluctuated over the past 5 years and where is it expected to go for each?
3. How does RHD or LHD effect the value of these cars?
4. Or will the scarcity and cost over the next 5 or so years push standard 964C2s prices so significantly that they are a good investment?

Thank you in advance.

Last edited by Porsche964FP; 03-08-2011 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:16 PM
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ilko
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Tell your friend that a car is a ****ty investment.

By the time you pay all the taxes, along with maintenance and repair bills, even if you make a few bucks on top it won't be worth the entry fee, let a lone a decent ROI.

Not to mention the fact that you will sit and stare at it in your garage instead of drive and enjoy it because you don't want to rack up the miles. How depressing...

Does that answer your question?
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ilko View Post
Tell your friend that a car is a ****ty investment.

By the time you pay all the taxes, along with maintenance and repair bills, even if you make a few bucks on top it won't be worth the entry fee, let a lone a decent ROI.

Not to mention the fact that you will sit and stare at it in your garage instead of drive and enjoy it because you don't want to rack up the miles. How depressing...

Does that answer your question?
No it doesn't. You've misunderstood or I'm not being clear.

Of course it's going to cost him to run it, you own a Porsche to enjoy it and that's the bottom line.
(A point so obvious it feels strange having to write it for someone. Especially considering Rennlisters drive their cars.)

Why else buy one... If he wanted a no maintenance and a true absolute investment I believe I have enough logic alone in me to recommend him to buy a... (for e.g.) painting if he was looking for something he just wanted to look at and not spend money on.

Am I being clear?

Thanks none the less

Last edited by Porsche964FP; 03-08-2011 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:48 PM
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ilko
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Look up the what the term investment means and let me know if a car fits that profile. And no, a car can't be compared to a painting. If you look at a painting, it won't depreciate. If you drive the car, it will. There's your whole problem with using a car as an investment.

So, I would advise my friends to buy the car that will make them the happiest driving it.

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Old 03-08-2011, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ilko View Post
Look up the what the term investment means and let me know if a car fits that profile. And no, a car can't be compared to a painting. If you look at a painting, it won't depreciate. If you drive the car, it will. There's your whole problem with using a car as an investment.

Precisely what I'm saying, they aren't alike.

A piece of art work (relatively) doesn't require maintenance. A car does.

Let me reiterate. Since it seems necessary.

My relative wants to buy a Porsche, he will only use it for occasional track days. He wants to buy a Porsche that will not lose value as much as some.

Now considering from my limited knowledge of the market (hence my original post) that 964RSs as an example have held their value well and increased significantly over the past 5 years... It's nothing short of smart to buy one considering all of the above?
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:05 PM
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ilko
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OK, so you went from an investment in the first post to not lose value in your last post. If your friend/relative/etc. wants to track the car, I'd suggest him to buy a well-sorted Carrera 2. He can track it to his heart's content, not worry too much if he stuffs it into a wall, and won't lose much in the resale.

The other cars you have in mind would be only marginally more fun at the track unless he's a pro and he runs the chance of writing them off with a single mistake on his part or somebody else's. That would prevent me personally from enjoying such a car in a thorough matter.
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:08 PM
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So back to programming or someone else going to tell me that cars are such a bad 'investment' that no one should buy a Porsche with the hope that some, might cost less than others to run against their original value!
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ilko View Post
OK, so you went from an investment in the first post to not lose value in your last post. If your friend/relative/etc. wants to track the car, I'd suggest him to buy a well-sorted Carrera 2. He can track it to his heart's content, not worry too much if he stuffs it into a wall, and won't lose much in the resale.

The other cars you have in mind would be only marginally more fun at the track unless he's a pro and he runs the chance of writing them off with a single mistake on his part or somebody else's. That would prevent me personally from enjoying such a car in a thorough matter.
Thanks for helping 'reword' my OP.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Porsche964FP View Post
I have a relative who is interested in buying a Porsche that will maintain and may increase in value ...
I'm with Ilko on this one. I wouldn't suggest anybody buy these cars in anticipation of maintaining or increasing in value. They are not an investment if you actually plan to put miles on them. I see a lot of people being afraid of enjoying their cars on road or track because of it's negative impact on resale value.

Now if you bought a very high mileage base C2 my guess is that values would not decrease much from what you could buy them for today.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:03 PM
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Given the European market over the past few years, I would have thought all four Porsche model options you mention offer strong retention values on investment / outlay.

Less we forget that there are some additional costs to take into consideration annually and for the duration of ownership that we sometimes don't factor in or try and forget.

Based on my costs for my cars this year on annual Insurance, Road Tax, Tracker, service, repair and maintenance I have spent a lot of money. Which I will not tally up here or recoup come sale time! My cars are my hobby!!

I didn't expect to make money on my 964RS Touring when I bought it, only not to lose it quite so quickly than a newer model 911. My motivation for purchasing the car was I had lusted after a 964 RS since their launch in 1992. However the car has more than doubled in value in a little more than four years. Whether that will remain the situation only time will tell - I have no intention of selling irrespective of value.

I would also think the RS 3.8 and RSR version worthy of inclusion into the Bucket List as well.

Oh and even though my cars are valuable and rare they still get driven regularly and have been to Spa and the Ring. You have to enjoy your ownership / investment and extra miles means extra smiles and great memories.
Next month the RS 993 and I are off to Stuttgart Museum and the Ring with a few pals, that is the best reason to buy a Porsche in my book!

PS I also use the 'investment' word when justifying to the wife!!!
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:42 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback guys, it all makes sense.

Simon has just outlined a good point though... Irrespective of maintenance costs (that's a reality of ownership, when a car is enjoyed and the purchase would be) some cars and in Simon's case his 964RS has doubled in value... I can't see this happening with a same milage & condition 964 C2?
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:30 PM
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+ 1 on the 3.8 RSR as a worthy candidate

You could possibly also look into a C4 lightweight. I hear they are monsters on the track and they are quite rare.

I would imagine that it is not just the millage of a car that adds to any "appreciation" that it would have down the road. there is also how well it has been maintained and the availability of a viable enthusiasts market at the time that you want to sell it. Even if the car has been driven on the road or in anger, it can still be upkept so that the only thing even showing that the car has been driven is the odometer. As I have read many times on this site - the blue book value of our cars is crap, there is so much else that goes into the equation.

Porsche964FP-

Tell your buddy to go for it, you only live once........
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:32 AM
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I echo Bart964rst's experience, I have been pleasantly surprised at the appreciation in value of my air-cooled cars, including a 993 RS and a 964 Turbo S Lightweight. On the other hand, I expected a bath on my 997 GT3, which came to pass. Just come in with your eyes open, and don't be optimistic about expected value.

One data point - the Asia market is only beginning to be crazy about these cars, and many, if not most, dealerships are booked 6 months plus - the dealerships are printing money given the amount of wealth creation in Asia. The interesting thing is that many of my friends, after driving their 997s and then test driving one of the air-cooled cars, ask, "Where can I buy one of those!". I believe the Asia demand is only beginning for these cars, especially from the Chinese, and will eventually follow the trends set by both the U.S. and Europe for value against 996/997. It could bode well for global prices.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:19 PM
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Honestly I doubt either the RS, 3.8RS/RSR or turbo S can go any higher in value. They have already hit the stratosphere and although you might not loose money odds are they will not see significant gains. These cars see a steep drop in value as mileage increases.

Production numbers on the 964 Turbo 3.6 are greater for the ROW market but I think relatively low in the UK. In the US they have dropped because of the bad economy although very few cars come up for sale. With less than 300 available for the entire US market I don't see why they shouldn't increase in value as the market improves but as newer cars continue to depreciate the interest is not as great as it was a few years back. I am assuming it is similar there.

These cars should hold there value better than your average Porsche but it is a crap shoot.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:32 PM
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Thanks again, keep them coming.
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