beentherebaby

Sorry to hear of your accident but I hope your injuries are minor. Too bad the car took a bad hit...

As far as the C2/4 is concerned, in my experience they have similar, but not as much lift-throttle oversteer depending on the speed of the turn. The electronics try to compensate for lift-throttle oversteer as best they can. Unfortunately any car can and in particular a rear engine car will always have lift-throttle oversteer.

It's counter intuative but you always need at least steady throttle in a turn in a rear engine car to maintain stability - even when the tires have broken loose and you're sliding sideways. Opposite lock with steady throttle will prevent dreaded lift-throttle oversteer and spinning. It's an acquired skill and certainly worth learning. It's easiest to practice on slower turns in the wet. That's why I like instructing students in the wet... They learn the vehicle dynamics at a pace where they have a chance to recover. In the dry with the higher traction limit you've spun the car before you know it's happening.

Makmov

Those are not your only two choices.

You learn to drift real fast. car control hang the tail out.

However, it always begs the question of how did you get into that corner way too fast to begin with?

Henry964

After doing several high performance driving courses I still put my 964 on the grass from time to time, but almost never on the street, yes in circuits

In the last driving training I did, the instructors (2 ex racing drivers with lot´s of experience) told me that I kept losing the rear of my car because I didn´t lift the throttle when the car started losing traction, they told me that I should lift a little bit to regain traction and only then start pushing again.One of them drived my 964 and he could break loose the tail many times but never lost control of the car.Amazing car control that I obviously still don´t have

UncleRemus

^ That hurts! Anyways, I was very pleasantly surprised to find that my RSA was NOT tail happy at a local autocross on street tires. In fact, I found that lifting the throttle helped me turn in better without sliding. Maybe I have aggressive alignment settings though . . .

race911

Let's get back to the basics, we're kind of all over the map so far in the comments.

All other things being equal, a stock 911 of any 993-and-earlier vintage is going to have lift throttle oversteer characteristics. How comfortable/skilled you are at overcoming the physics is the tightrope that has had an ever-widening safety margin since the initial attempts to correct the situation circa 1967.

From the looks of the picture, our OP had 7's and 9's on a 3.2L car. Beyond that, I can only guess at further suspension changes/aligment/lowering. So let's just say he overcooked it, lifted, the rear started coming around............and smack. Maybe. In the '91 I definitely see a stock suspension, likely original, fitted with 16" tires. With all the weight transfer inherent in that setup, yeah, same scenario with this '91, probably the same result.

What to do? As mentioned, car can be stiffened with different springs. Hand in hand are dampers better matched to those springs. Different stabilizer bars to better control weight transfer. More aggressive geometry in an alignment. Larger tires/wheels? Yes and no. Merely talking weight transfer, not ultimate roadholding.

Bottom line, if you're sticking to what you've got, braking in a straight line is your best defense. (Contrary to popular belief, it's the rear engined-ness of a 911 that gives you the braking benefit, not the size or inherent "Porscheness" of the brakes themselves.) Weight is SIGNIFICANTLY

race911

OK, that "quick reply" mis-hit only got my partially done......to continue that paragraph:

Bottom line, if you're sticking to what you've got, braking in a straight line is your best defense. (Contrary to popular belief, it's the rear engined-ness of a 911 that gives you the braking benefit, not the size or inherent "Porscheness" of the brakes themselves.) Weight is SIGNIFICANTLY moved forward, then when you roll onto the throttle, to the back it goes. And as you accelerate out of a corner you have traction. Upset that by lifting, thus transferring the weight forward again, and you'll be dancing with the steering wheel. Not the best thing to have to do on the street.

To sum it up, it's a fine line on carrying speed through the corners. If your car is staying stock, get a feel for that dramatic amount of weight transfer. An autocross would be an EXCELLENT place to acquire the skill, and improve your confidence.

Jim Richards

Ken, everything you said adds up except this sentence:

The design/size of the brakes give the braking benefit. The rear engine design influences the vehicle's dynamics through the turn as weight transfers forward, and then aft. Of course, there could be something I'm missing. Thoughts? Thanks.

Makmov

I have to agree with Jim.

You don't often hear about how amzing the brakes in the Lamborghini, Ferrari, or other rear engine cars have.

Even in golden years, Porsche was a little under powered and slow down the straights. They just killed everyone in the corners - if you knew how to drive one.


I am sticking with the Porscheness of the brakes.

race911

Yeah, to a point. Of course Porsche designed and sized the brake system through the generations of 356 to current GT2RS to enhance the physics. But after the Corvair and various VW products, I think a Renault Alpine was the only rear engined car somewhat mass produced. Certainly no other sports car, other than the Alpine.

But if you're just going to go with straight line braking, getting the car stopped in the minimal amount of distance, etc., the rear engined car (or I guess you could say the rear weight biased car, as it could be front engined with a lump of lead in the trunk) will have superior braking characteristics.

I do know it's funny to look at the old, old, old film and see a 356 sneak in under braking on a Healy or Jag with its big lump of cast iron 6 cylinder up front.

race911

There's never been a rear engined Lambo or Ferrari. (Mid isn't rear. It's a plus in some respects, a minus in others.)

racer

Since the first 911s, each iteration (sans the turbo), has gotten a little better in the throttle off oversteer situation. 964 are less prone than the SC/Carrera cars.. 993, a little less, 996s? not sure they can oversteer

It is all about weight transfer and learning to contol it.

Bottom line, if you go to fast into ANY corner, it can be an issue. Most 911s leave the road backwards, while most other cars let you see what you hit. It could be that in your situation, either you ran out of skill, or luck, or both. Nothing to say that a 964 driven in a similar manner won't end up the same way.

As mentioned, it would be best to get some seat time in an event.. AX or drivers ed, and learn how to improve your skill set.

Makmov

Okay you got me there.

I am still sticking with the Porscheness, though

I wonder how you class a Miura? I know it transverse ahead of the rear axle, how could possibly class a Smart twofour as rear? There is no way the engine could be behind the rear axle.

Unkle

+1

Don't change anything on the car till you personally understand whats going on...

elbeee964

Seems less talkin', and more listening to Ken answers this OP.

My Corolla, 964, any Ferrari - or Buick - can all brake right up to their tire's limits (ie, 'lock-up').
The performance vehicle's brakes are only superior in the number of times they can be exercised before they boil fluid, or do something equally non-cooperative.
Going into that first corner, all cold brakes are equal.
But going into that first corner all vehicle mass layout geometries are definitely not equal.
And having a car's engine mass on the same plane and behind the rear axles, as with any 911... adds magical properties to how much braking traction you can exact from any set of tires. <-- And Ken was right to point this out.

To the OP: an autoX, or airport DE are marvelous places to learn where your new 964's off-throttle lies.

And, yes - a 964 is not as twitchy as its torsion-bar'd cousin; though they both know the same dance steps.

And - nice car!

boxsey911

I like Henry's advice. I find the 964 is always telling you what it's doing underneath you. It responds to 'easy off' and 'easy on' throttle commands. Treating the throttle as an on/off pedal is like beating it with a stick and just like the early cars, it might try and bite you.