featherpillow

Hello Everyone

I'm a newbie that's seriously looking at a 964 purchase. I finally convinced my wife that owning a 911 doesn't automatically mean I'm searching for a new girlfriend .

I settled on the 964 after doing some comparative driving between a few older 911's, a 964, and a Cayman. The 964 seemed to have the best response to me, and I like the suspension and handling best out of all the other cars I compared it to.

For me, the big question is this: just how reliable are these cars?. I've searched through archives of this forum and read just about everything I could find. The number that seemed to come up was somewhere around $2500 USD per year, but those threads were all 4-6 years old.

To me, $2500 per year isn't any better than what I spend on this stupid Audi D3 A8L I'm currently driving (it's like a huge problem-ridden tank with tiny peepholes for windows). It's not that I can't afford it, it's just that this figure doesn't exactly equate to reliable in my book.

So any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome. If I'm being a whiny idiot, feel free to tell me so.

Thanks in advance

race911

Extremely reliable. And that's pretty much for a 50K car you might find (and pay a premium), or a 200K car that's had full service and repairs through its life.

But the cost per year thing is much too open-ended of a question, unfortunately. My only data point, as I've not driven a 911 daily for about 15 years, is my '97 C4S. 28K miles in 5.5 years (127K now), and I've changed the oil 3 times. It's due for another, as well as a 30K service soon. And a full set of brakes and rotors; but it appears the rotors are original. The RSA isn't too valid a comparison, as I've only put 8K (but about 5K track) miles on it in 6 years, now 138K overall. After an initial suspension install with what I had laying around, I've changed the fluids annually.

68CGPlt

These cars are no longer spring chickens, so they are going to require some work. There are a lot of variables that come into play....are you going to use it daily....has it been maintained throughout its lifetime.....has it lived a hard life in environmentally challenging climates, etc. I drive mine daily, except when on the motorcycle and have found the 911's I've owned to be mostly trouble free. I try to do most of my own work, so some of the expense is reduced (this forum is great for DIY knowledge). I agree that 2500 dollars annually is probably a sound budget...some years may be substantially less where others may be much higher. Elective surgery (suspension, wings, interior bits, etc) will certainly drive the annual cost. Spend a little more for a good example (PPI, documentation history) and you should be fine.

Streetfighter

Remember these parts are expensive on these cars and they are not going to ever decrease. I would agree $2500 a year about matches my running costs. I drive mine daily, it is the only car I have. Overall they are reliable and great cars to own and drive, but oil changes, belts, brakes are more expensive than a Toyota Camry. If you can do some of your own wrenching that helps, but be prepared to at some point pay the $1500 dollar repair bill for something that you never see coming.

raspberryroadster

-coupe is cheaper than a cab (top is cheap top motors are not)

-imo these cars were well assembled and engines solid....key is, i think, how well they have been cared for & maintained. you are correct in terms of driving they are very nice....and remain to this day tight/rattle free.

-they like to be driven so really low mileage may not be the answer, but i do think reasonably low mileage is best, so paying for a good example up front with not decently low odometer reading is savings in the end.....(unless you are dealing with pro rebuild).
your upfront p.p.i. will be best guide as to strengths/weaknesses of the car.

-my car specifically, c2 cab purchased 1yr ago. with 107,000km (66,000mi.) excluding mods i wanted and new tires , have spent $800 on new rotors/caps oil service.
clutch continues to engage strong/early so not counting on that as an issue, but am considering install of a rebuilt distributor (about $800). brakes will be good for another yr.
so this yr, all things being equal expect to spend about $1000 excluding discretionary items.

but these cars are now in the are of 20yrs old so parts failure is always an issue, and generally consider than my annual outlay may well be in the range of $1500-2000 excluding new rubber.

please note i do approx 6000-8000km per yr & therefore am not representative of a dd.

....guess you can always buy a late model honda civic for less money if you want minimal outlays

featherpillow

Thanks for the input everyone. The car I'm looking at is a slate grey '91 C2 coupe with 77k. It's a California car; it looks well taken care of from a visual perspective and service records are included with the vehicle. They're asking $19,500, which I originally complained about as too expensive (I'll have to do a top-end rebuild next year), but it turns out I'm just a cheapskate. PPI is set to be performed in a few days.

Most likely this will be a seasonal daily driver, so it will see regular use about 4 months per year. The rest of the time it will be garaged.

raspberryroadster

......top end rebuild next yr. at 77,000 miles, why?
......are you buying from a dealer & is the ppi being done by an independent pro shop? do you have leakdown targets??

good luck

-nick

You've definitely chosen the best model!

$2500/year should give you a nice relaxed cushion from what I've seen during my ownership. The usual list of wear items seem to have a similar schedule as any other car - clutch, brakes, tires, oil, battery, alternator, starter, spark plugs, cap(s) & rotor(s). The ignition wires seem to have a pretty solid lifetime, but they're very expensive when their time is up.

Here is a top-of-the-head list of 'extras' for the 964 -

- expensive fresh air blower motors under the dash (you'll hear a squeak) which seem to not have great longevity
- the AC will likely need a good overhaul at some point to keep it working in peak shape
- valve adjustments are every ~15k miles
- the rear taillights can fade and crack and are pricey
- the gauge faces can peel and flake the paint, maybe more of a cab+sunlight problem
- having the seats re-dyed / detailed by an upholstery shop can really make a world of difference in the interior
- a radio upgrade is surprisingly necessary if you're spending a lot of time on the road, the original is really terrible
- having the engine oil-leak-free can be a task

And then you'll have the occasional completely random widget that needs replacing like any other car.

I would give the 964 pretty high marks for reliability though. It's just that when something does go bad, shop and part rates aren't cheap.

Enjoy!

featherpillow

Thanks! I think I'll enjoy it more than something like an M3.

I've read that these cars need a top end rebuild around 80k. If I'm misinformed please tell me; I'd love to be wrong on this one!

Yes and yes

I'm getting a leakdown test done, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'targets'.

raspberryroadster

i would expect that the engine should be ok for quite some bit before rebuild is needed but those much smarter than i should chime in.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...ne-higher.html

generally i think leakdown targets (performed correctly).....
less than 5-7% excellent
less than 10% very good
15% range...marginal
20% requires 2nd look as likely wallet time (your top end rebuild?? and in the case of these cars pretty pricey!)

re m3 you are correct (i've had 2 bmw's, no comparison).....964 will give you kart like drive.....you will enjoy.

good luck, bon chance, gombatte ne

Porscheholic

This is just my personal experience (so certainly not any kind of scientific evidence), but I purchased my 89 C4 two years ago and have spent about $5,000 in repairs and maintenance. I paid $16,500 for the car so I still feel I got a fair deal, because my car is now running extremely well to the oil cooler go out on me, and I had to have the cam chain tensioners replaced. I don't expect to need those kinds of repairs every year, so if you ask me again in 5 years I my answer could change significantly, and maybe my yearly average will end up at only $1,000.

Also, I have to rely on a mechanic for all repairs - obviously if you work on your own car your experience will be different.

Bottom line, though - I love driving my 964 every day (mine is a daily driver) and I am ready to take care of my baby, whatever she needs. As has been mentioned many, many times - these cars are extremely well built and you get to appreciate that the longer you own one of these great cars.

raspberryroadster

nick you are spot on re
-stock audio system sucks, for both 964/993 series and new audio install is appropriate (along with primary exhaust delete!)
-yes i have a cab & my gauge faces need a redo, but they all work & clock keeps better time than (dare i say it) a seiko
-my a/c does not work but as its a cab i cannot be bothered charging it....main thing is heater still blows strong (top down in january nil better)
but
-my engine does not leak & i have garbaged the bottom pan....not a drop under there (so far "touch wood")

parts prices are high....best to avoid where possible porsche dealers, you are correct for those of us that are not diy guys find a good pro shop that knows these aircoolers well. get better & cheaper service.

you can find these pro shops from the guys here.

Frank 993 C4S

You're going about it exactly the right way. I'd be surprised if a car with good leak down numbers would need a top end rebuilt at 80k.

featherpillow

If that's your car in the photo it's beautiful. Very striking. I love the wheels.

I'll end up doing some of my own maintenance; brakes are pretty easy. I used to do all my own auto service for years so I'm no stranger to DIY. I can tell the rear tail light lenses are looking a little faded from the sun, so those will need to be replaced eventually.

I'll keep everyone posted on progress. Tomorrow morning is first test drive, then it's time for PPI if test drive goes well.

race911

Never will one of these engines, absent abuse like running it out of oil, "need" a top end well into the 100+K range. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean the valve guides aren't trashed. But if it's not burning oil, and you're not subjecting it to regular, hard (track) use..........does it matter? As I've said numerous times on the 993 forum, if valve guides were as easy to change out as spark plugs (even if the cost was high), everyone would do it in the first 30K.