MAF ; Great 964 Upgrade ! In the TOP 5 ?
#136
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#137
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No worries- proceed without me. I would still like to meet up in Jan with you and Derek sometime though.
We can do a highspeed run 3 abreast on I-20 late one night : 0
We can do a highspeed run 3 abreast on I-20 late one night : 0
#138
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I don't agree. What any experiment needs for validation is a control reference - a stable known artifact that can be measured at the same time the main experiments are run. It the stable artifact changes for no apparent reason, that is a warning that something is amiss in the test.
The second car is tested only to determine drift in the dyno calibration and changes in motor HP due to change in weather conditions. If we change both cars, we lose the stable reference and results will be "meaningless", to quote a word over-used in this thread.
I make my living designing experiments. We admitted our last experiment was less than scientific, but variables were under control enough to say the engines are different by less than 5 HP. I was for real when I said going in that I wanted and expected to see some improvement. I will pay for my dyno runs should this go through. I plan to order the MAF kit if the claim of reliable power increase can be proven.
Merry Christmas everyone, and many thanks for being great sports and companions all year long.
The second car is tested only to determine drift in the dyno calibration and changes in motor HP due to change in weather conditions. If we change both cars, we lose the stable reference and results will be "meaningless", to quote a word over-used in this thread.
I make my living designing experiments. We admitted our last experiment was less than scientific, but variables were under control enough to say the engines are different by less than 5 HP. I was for real when I said going in that I wanted and expected to see some improvement. I will pay for my dyno runs should this go through. I plan to order the MAF kit if the claim of reliable power increase can be proven.
Merry Christmas everyone, and many thanks for being great sports and companions all year long.
The dyno test is not to test the dyno itself, I see no purpose for this.
Is there any reason why you are not willing to run a factory DME & chip? Since you are running all stock components, this should make no difference at all, should it?
Based on your earlier race results, you claim (in a earlier post) that your car is stock and the HP difference between your car and Derek's shouldn't be more than 5hp. So let's see, we dyno your car with what you have, then we dyno it with a DME using the stock chip, there should be no difference in the results!! Now we dyno Derek's car with the same DME & chip running the AFM. This will tell us many things: How your "stock car" compares to Derek's car (without MAF). But I guess this test is not a good test for you, is it?
I don't get it! You make statements about your car being stock, about Derek's car making about the same HP as yours, and that the MAF yields no performance whatsoever. You have ZERO proof of any of this! Yet when called upon to validate your statements on the dyno, all we hear is "not a valid test".
Well you know what, I had enough of this BS. Bringing a new product to the 964 community is a good thing. But this is getting out of control!
I wish everyone Happy Holidays!
Last edited by fast951; 12-21-2007 at 06:40 PM.
#139
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Ok, So what are we doing ?
Are we running the car or not . Remember It cost to run on the dyno .
I really don't care. I am happy with the upgrade . I am willing to help but I don't have anything to prove.
I like what I bought !!!
Let me know I am planning on spend some time Thursday afternoon to do it.
It is 45 mins one way from my house so let not waste my time if the info is not valuable.
Merry Christmas TOO!!
Are we running the car or not . Remember It cost to run on the dyno .
I really don't care. I am happy with the upgrade . I am willing to help but I don't have anything to prove.
I like what I bought !!!
Let me know I am planning on spend some time Thursday afternoon to do it.
It is 45 mins one way from my house so let not waste my time if the info is not valuable.
Merry Christmas TOO!!
#140
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I agree with John. A lot of us have day jobs which lead us to think we know these cars better than those that work on them for a living. Just remember, this thread was started because a customer of John's was very happy with his product. For some reason we've devolved into a debate which if taken the wrong way could be viewed as questioning John's integrity. Let's step back for a minute and give the guy a break. This reminds me a lot of when Steve Wong started out. Now he has hundreds of happy customers.
#142
Burning Brakes
I have a Saab 9-3 as my daily driver that has very few options for performance enhancement because there are not a lot of people out there willing to invest money to bring products forward. Their performance bullentin board only has basically one discussion - PPC.
The 964 has defintitely more options than for a Saab 9-3. I would always welcome new products for our cars and then let the buyer decide for himself what the value of the product is to him. I would rather more options than less options.
The 964 has defintitely more options than for a Saab 9-3. I would always welcome new products for our cars and then let the buyer decide for himself what the value of the product is to him. I would rather more options than less options.
#143
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I agree we should drop the whole thing if this starts getting personal.
#144
Wow! I just finished reading this thread thinking that finally I will see some credible before/after test results. What Springer proposed seems very logical to me.
John: You appear to have far too much faith in the accuracy and repeatability of a dyno. You should be aware of the many factors that can affect the results of a dyno run. A proper dyno setup with sufficient airflow to guarantee consistent intake temps is quite expensive. The point of the test is not to determine how many HP Springer has but to determine what the before after effects of the MAF are on Derek's car. Multiple runs of Springers unmodified car will provide a measure of the accuracy of the test.
Look forward to seeing the results. Hope you guys can work it out.
Greg
John: You appear to have far too much faith in the accuracy and repeatability of a dyno. You should be aware of the many factors that can affect the results of a dyno run. A proper dyno setup with sufficient airflow to guarantee consistent intake temps is quite expensive. The point of the test is not to determine how many HP Springer has but to determine what the before after effects of the MAF are on Derek's car. Multiple runs of Springers unmodified car will provide a measure of the accuracy of the test.
Look forward to seeing the results. Hope you guys can work it out.
Greg
#145
i have set quiet reading this thread for weeks. i am very tired of the negativity associated with the new product his company is offering. i understand that everyone is free to voice an opinion but personally i feel that this community is so caught up listening to a few "known" porsche gods biased opinions. a stock displacement motor is only going to make so much power. having the parts and tuning it to it maximun potential is the key to make it more efficient. with that said do i feel that there is room for improvment, yes..i feel that modern equipment and designed components with offer a improvement over the stock 17+ yr. old components. this is not motec and is a far cry from it but it is also $6000 cheaper. most porsche enthusiests are happy to spend a few thousand dollars on upgrades as most here has. 2% of this community will take it to the next level. john is offerening the 964 crowd a way to finally tune the motronic system yourself. if anyone had payed attention there is a next level offering a piggyback unit to control fuel and timing. he can also program it for larger injectors in which 50% on here need. as a few on here know a stock injectored 964 motor maxes out around 295hp with a stock intake and injectors(305hp with a 993 system). the next level up until now is going to individual throttle boddies and motec. the improved flow of the throttle boddies with larger injectors net another 35-40hp over a stock intake. no one here has ever seen what a stock intake will do with larger injectors. no one has had the proper software to tune a motronic based system to add injectors. until i get one of his units and play with the tuning is when i will know the actual gain. will it make a larger improvement over a stock configured motronic, yes.most of the 964 board will benefit from just the maf conversion. throttle response will improve as well as making the car more linear. i on the otherhand need a way to tune my car. this is why the piggyback is needed and larger injectors. i do not want to spend the money on motec as its a street car. i will however spend a few thousand making sure my 3.8 is tuned properly to its maxximun effecientcy.
john and i have spoke over the phone as well as coresponded through email. he is a very nice guy as well as he knows porsche tuning. dyno's are just a tuning tool and most gauge performance off of it by making changes. the only true way to know what his product does is to do a series of runs in different configurations. the condition of the car is key as a fresh motor will benefit more. not one car out there will be the same as another, that is why you take the same car and show the improvements on that particular car. derek and springers experiment has to many variables. springers car might just be a stronger from the get go. dereks car in the other configuration might have been totally left behind. john tuned his car to a safe a/f ratio and timing table. could he extract more...sure. would it be safe in the real world...no. anyone can stick a car on the dyno and make a product look good before and after. john is not worried about that and has not built a dyno "queen" software system.
the 964 is a old car and everyone on here should be happy that someone is trying to make something for our cars. do you think anyone else is going to spend the r&d on a has been? no way...please sit back and let a controlled test be done. after that flame all you want and run a guy willing to help us off...thats smart huh...please feel free to flame me if you want but not a guy that is building a product for out ancient cars....
john and i have spoke over the phone as well as coresponded through email. he is a very nice guy as well as he knows porsche tuning. dyno's are just a tuning tool and most gauge performance off of it by making changes. the only true way to know what his product does is to do a series of runs in different configurations. the condition of the car is key as a fresh motor will benefit more. not one car out there will be the same as another, that is why you take the same car and show the improvements on that particular car. derek and springers experiment has to many variables. springers car might just be a stronger from the get go. dereks car in the other configuration might have been totally left behind. john tuned his car to a safe a/f ratio and timing table. could he extract more...sure. would it be safe in the real world...no. anyone can stick a car on the dyno and make a product look good before and after. john is not worried about that and has not built a dyno "queen" software system.
the 964 is a old car and everyone on here should be happy that someone is trying to make something for our cars. do you think anyone else is going to spend the r&d on a has been? no way...please sit back and let a controlled test be done. after that flame all you want and run a guy willing to help us off...thats smart huh...please feel free to flame me if you want but not a guy that is building a product for out ancient cars....
Last edited by slammed1000; 12-22-2007 at 09:40 AM.
#146
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I still want to do it, and will be thrilled if we can find some reliable horsepower at reasonable cost.
This was never meant to be an attack on John's product. I expected to make a purchase after Derek blew my doors off. I see this next step as helping John and others see some objective data to show what can safely be done.
This was never meant to be an attack on John's product. I expected to make a purchase after Derek blew my doors off. I see this next step as helping John and others see some objective data to show what can safely be done.
#147
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Other than a few comments to the contrary, overall I don't think the tone of this thread has degraded to questioning either John's products or his exemplary character. He has made no claims regarding unreasonable power gains, unlike many of his competitors. It is probably quite reasonable to ask questions, however.
That being said, John's reputation is unquestionable with the 951 crowd and I am sure his products(s) for the 964 will be some of the best available. I know I am looking forwards to seeing what else he might have in the works to help squeeze all the performance we can out of our aging machines.
Marc
That being said, John's reputation is unquestionable with the 951 crowd and I am sure his products(s) for the 964 will be some of the best available. I know I am looking forwards to seeing what else he might have in the works to help squeeze all the performance we can out of our aging machines.
Marc
Last edited by Marc Shaw; 12-22-2007 at 07:34 PM. Reason: typo
#148
Why does everyone get so hostile about upgrades like this? Personally any time a reputable vendor enters the market for our cars i'm excited. How many vendors do you know of that sell porsche parts but do not offer 964 parts? Even if you're not interested in a MAF at least you know have another vendor that supports our cars.
#149
I think when a company comes on a board advertising a new product they should expect to be asked for some verifiable evidence that the modification works as advertised. In this case I believe it was a customer who set the expectation for a 50HP gain whereas the manufacturer didn't make any particular claim other than performance would be better.
So far the test results for this mod have been underwhelming - no noticable improvement over basically stock engine. Hopefully we'll see some better results in the weeks to come.
If someone has a legitimate performance upgrade for the 964 they are not going to stop offering it because of some harsh criticism on a bulletin board.
So far the test results for this mod have been underwhelming - no noticable improvement over basically stock engine. Hopefully we'll see some better results in the weeks to come.
If someone has a legitimate performance upgrade for the 964 they are not going to stop offering it because of some harsh criticism on a bulletin board.
#150
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i have set quiet reading this thread for weeks. i am very tired of the negativity associated with the new product his company is offering. i understand that everyone is free to voice an opinion but personally i feel that this community is so caught up listening to a few "known" porsche gods biased opinions. a stock displacement motor is only going to make so much power. having the parts and tuning it to it maximun potential is the key to make it more efficient. with that said do i feel that there is room for improvment, yes..i feel that modern equipment and designed components with offer a improvement over the stock 17+ yr. old components. this is not motec and is a far cry from it but it is also $6000 cheaper. most porsche enthusiests are happy to spend a few thousand dollars on upgrades as most here has. 2% of this community will take it to the next level. john is offerening the 964 crowd a way to finally tune the motronic system yourself. if anyone had payed attention there is a next level offering a piggyback unit to control fuel and timing. he can also program it for larger injectors in which 50% on here need. as a few on here know a stock injectored 964 motor maxes out around 295hp with a stock intake and injectors(305hp with a 993 system). the next level up until now is going to individual throttle boddies and motec. the improved flow of the throttle boddies with larger injectors net another 35-40hp over a stock intake. no one here has ever seen what a stock intake will do with larger injectors. no one has had the proper software to tune a motronic based system to add injectors. until i get one of his units and play with the tuning is when i will know the actual gain. will it make a larger improvement over a stock configured motronic, yes.most of the 964 board will benefit from just the maf conversion. throttle response will improve as well as making the car more linear. i on the otherhand need a way to tune my car. this is why the piggyback is needed and larger injectors. i do not want to spend the money on motec as its a street car. i will however spend a few thousand making sure my 3.8 is tuned properly to its maxximun effecientcy.
john and i have spoke over the phone as well as coresponded through email. he is a very nice guy as well as he knows porsche tuning. dyno's are just a tuning tool and most gauge performance off of it by making changes. the only true way to know what his product does is to do a series of runs in different configurations. the condition of the car is key as a fresh motor will benefit more. not one car out there will be the same as another, that is why you take the same car and show the improvements on that particular car. derek and springers experiment has to many variables. springers car might just be a stronger from the get go. dereks car in the other configuration might have been totally left behind. john tuned his car to a safe a/f ratio and timing table. could he extract more...sure. would it be safe in the real world...no. anyone can stick a car on the dyno and make a product look good before and after. john is not worried about that and has not built a dyno "queen" software system.
the 964 is a old car and everyone on here should be happy that someone is trying to make something for our cars. do you think anyone else is going to spend the r&d on a has been? no way...please sit back and let a controlled test be done. after that flame all you want and run a guy willing to help us off...thats smart huh...please feel free to flame me if you want but not a guy that is building a product for out ancient cars....
john and i have spoke over the phone as well as coresponded through email. he is a very nice guy as well as he knows porsche tuning. dyno's are just a tuning tool and most gauge performance off of it by making changes. the only true way to know what his product does is to do a series of runs in different configurations. the condition of the car is key as a fresh motor will benefit more. not one car out there will be the same as another, that is why you take the same car and show the improvements on that particular car. derek and springers experiment has to many variables. springers car might just be a stronger from the get go. dereks car in the other configuration might have been totally left behind. john tuned his car to a safe a/f ratio and timing table. could he extract more...sure. would it be safe in the real world...no. anyone can stick a car on the dyno and make a product look good before and after. john is not worried about that and has not built a dyno "queen" software system.
the 964 is a old car and everyone on here should be happy that someone is trying to make something for our cars. do you think anyone else is going to spend the r&d on a has been? no way...please sit back and let a controlled test be done. after that flame all you want and run a guy willing to help us off...thats smart huh...please feel free to flame me if you want but not a guy that is building a product for out ancient cars....