tonytaylor

My understanding as well is that the extra hp comes from the bigger injectors in the 9M Motec package. Take out/add in the cost of the injectors and perhaps the price difference isn't so apparent.

I guess it all comes down to what the tuner is comfortable mapping. The price you pay for the package depends on the results and both the 9M Motec and AMD hotfilm as it was give good value for money in hp terms and these results depend on the quality of the mapping If it's so easy to get 325hp from the Bosche DME why isn't everyone doing it?

Red rooster

Guys ,
The 964 DME will drive any injector that Motec will ! There is a Fairy tale here !!
Maybe a set of slightly higher flow rate injectors will allow the +25bhp from the DME system.
I have a slight problem with that but 6 injectors + a little mapping is not expensive.
I thought that a Motec system cost around £4,500 ($10,000 )? Have I got that wildly wrong ?

Geoff

NineMeister

Actually, not quite the fairytale it seems. There are two types of injector commonly used in these conversions, the low impedence/high current "peak and hold" injector and the high impedence/low current "saturated" injector. Peak and hold refers to the way the ecu controls the injector, in this case using a high initial current to snap the injector open (the peak) and then a reduced current to keep it open for the duration required (the hold). A saturated injector on the other hand uses the same lower current to open and hold the injector. For the Motec conversion we use a low impedence injector because the Motec injector drivers are designed to handle the peak & hold control, whereas with the Motronic ecu the standard injector is a high impedence unit and therefore you have to use a similar saturated injector for this ecu (as far as I know - certainly so if you do not change the drivers on the board) .

That said, there are larger injectors available in both designs, so it would be possible for instance to fit a set of high impedence 993 turbo injectors with the standard 964 or 993 ecu and then rescale them accordingly - my point is that no-one is doing this and getting the same results as us on a commercial basis.

The standard 9m Motec conversion costs £3500 (+VAT) including ecu, loom, injectors, air intake, sensors, labour, dyno time and mapping, which I think is pretty competitive. Unfortunately since Geoff left AMD the company has now gone to the wall, so whilst Simon and Tony have a nice compromise it is now no longer available and there are no alternatives that I know of.

Red rooster

Colin,

OK. So Motec uses , like the 3.2 , low impeadance injectors. Thats suprising as the rest of the world went to 15 ohm quite a while ago.
Both have a similar injector turn on time ,as far as I know ,so not a lot of difference there.
It was the statement that the 964 DME couldnt drive a bigger flow rate injector that brought me a smile !

I know that you are much happier with Motec than DME so I quite understand where you are coming from.
Its the extra 25 bhp that has my interest.



Since selling up AmD I have moved completely into current car system modifications and update serial loading systems . Whole different world.
Playing with my 993 engined 964 is a hobby and still great interest ,so all this chatter is not an attack , especially on you.
I guess you have to take the view , thats what our stuff does , if you can do better show me !

That has to be a future challenge !!!

All the best

Geoff

robmug

Interesting thread...I seem to recall Motec not having any knock sensing - is this correct?

NineMeister

Don't you bl**dy start Mugglestone, I have enough trouble standing my ground with Geoff than to spend another three pages arguing my case for the umpteenth time just for your benefit !!

Seriously, jsut do a search on Motec if you are intersted and you will get every answer to every question you could ever imagine and probably a lot more besides.

DaveK

When I read the first post in this thread, I didn't realise kevin was starting another Motec vs Motronic debate. I bet he didn't either.

SimonExtreme

But to answer a simple question. no it doesn't support knock sensing. However, it is easy to fit a device such as Knock Link which is probably a good idea with a raised state of tune. While the Motronic DME does have knock sensing and compansation, I wonder if it would be acpable of handling knock with bigger injectors. For the cost, I am a big fan of fitting an indepenmdent indicator for knock.

Red rooster

Simon,

The answer is of course yes. The knock system in M2.1 DME is a standalone sytem and works very well . It doesnt care which injectors, plugs,air filter etc
are on the motor.
I would be very cautious having a system minus knock on a 964 . Dont forget its the top end knock that you cant hear that blows motors apart !
Everyone associates a knock system with a nasty , audible rattle at medium rpm. That is only a very small part of the story.

Sorry to throw more into the pot but you may as well get it all !

Geoff

robmug

Sorry Colin - I was merely asking the question that popped into my head!

So, back to Kevin's original question then...

NineMeister

Sometimes I think it would be easier to just sit quietly in silent dispair......

WRT Motec and knock, provided that the engine is run on the same fuel (or better) that it was mapped on, you will not miss it. However, as Simon says, a little addition like the knocklink cannot do any harm (apart from the appearance of the unit on the dash of an RS) should you wish to know what is going on inside your engine. Funnily enough, the only engine we have "lost" through detonation over the last 5 years was running Motronic and was mapped elsewhere.

Red rooster

Colin,

How do you do this every day ?

Geoff

warmfuzzies

Ok chaps, thanks for the input, I really do appreciate this.

I'm mindful of a couple of things, so Colin, understand you are on the phone, it's not always as easy to get to as I'd like, when the time comes, I'll be on the phone to someone. I happen to like to browse and compare before picking it up, just my style I guess.
Motec has always interested me, I'm again mindful of not being able to get good fuel 100% of the time so for me ( and not to pi55 anyone off) I'd insist on a form of knock control....
I've looked at previous posts and have in mind for starters the 9M flywheel/clutch package ( yes I know no power increase) dual outlet exhaust, and remap was a starting point, I then thought about how Christers car always sounded, and thought about it being a little less even beat, something I like for performance and noise, I like things slightly off kilter....and then I got to thinking, hey ask. and so I did.
So thanks for the options, I'll now have to prepare SWMBO for a new set of shoes or something...

Kevin

NineMeister

Geoff, me old friend, I am beginning to ask myself the same question. When it comes to the crunch I don't think any of us are far from the Lester Burnham state (Kevin Apacey - American Beauty) where he preferred burger flipping at a fastfood joint to his writing job for a magazine. The big difference is that some of us do something about it, don't they?

NineMeister

Kevin,
No problem with your take on options but I would not be doing you any favours if I sold you a set of cams before you knew what the result would be, would I?

As for knock control, funilly enough we have a new high level ecu in for evaluation that is good enough to run a Le Mans engine at the edge of det for 24hours, but it is 3 times the price of a Motec ecu. If you want knock control nomatter what, the cheapest option would be to fit a 993 NVR ecu and loom, a set of 993tt injectors and have the engine live remapped to suit - but this combination would not tolerate a lumpy cam, ok?