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OK - cast or forged wheels, whatsvthe difference ??

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Old 04-12-2007, 03:01 PM
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rodders
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Default OK - cast or forged wheels, whatsvthe difference ??

What is the difference and what is the benefit or otherwise.
I have always liked the look of the 7 and 9 inch D 90 wheels and i notice that they are cast rather than forged - so what is it all about.
in 1990 Porsche ran some ads of a red 964 with the 7 and 9 wheels and the pics were great
Old 04-12-2007, 03:11 PM
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I am learning already - but is there any difference in weight between the Cast and Forged D 90
Old 04-12-2007, 05:30 PM
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meek
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Hi Rodders. D90's were never available as forged items. You are thinking of CS Forged alloys, that look very similar to the D90's. They started life on the 944 Turbo SE ( Silver Rose) but were also available on 928s and were shown in early marketing pics for the 964, though never an option in production, as far as I know. I don't think you will find any with the correct offsets for a 964.

The alloy in forged wheels is that much stronger than cast alloy and as such the spokes etc of a forged wheel can be that much thinner and therefore lighter than the cast equivalent. If you ever see a set of CS wheels up close, the spokes are very thin. They make great track wheels.

PS I was a 944 Turbo SE owner, hence the nerdy knowledge, but have just bought a 964. Will post a proper intro and stop lurking once it is back from the bodyshop; full repray in progress
Old 04-12-2007, 06:20 PM
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rodders
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Adrian's book does refer to there being a 928 9" that is a 52.3 offset and a 7" which is also a 52.3 off set - they are referred to as cast wheels and fit the 964 perfectly
I have just bought a set from Porshapart that they say are 7 and 9's and 52.3
- the only reference I can find to them is as above a 928 part number for the 9 and a 964 number for the 7 - 52.3
They arrive tomorrow.
I am sure they are not the Silver Rose version - I asked specifically but we will see tomorrow.
A friend had a left hand drive 964 with the M030 suspension pack that had 7 and 9 in the normal D90 design.
Adrian also refers to and has pics of the C4RS with normal design 9" D 90
He even quotes the part numbers - he is a bit of an oracle
Meek,- if you arnt aware of Adrian Streather's book I strongly recommend it
'Porsche 911 Enthusiasts Companion 964 C2 C4 Turbo, RS 1989 - 1994' - Bentley Publishers
- I will let you know what turns up
I like the D 90 on the road - my C2 has Bilsteins/H&R, 22mm front bar, exhaust with side box only - as its a 1989 car - drilled box -
I also drive a 964 RS, GT 2, and a Sportomatic - on a regular basis - but the C2 is the school run daily driver - since I bought it new in 1989
Its interesting comparing all the cars - the RS is just too hard for the kids - i haver just run down to Chamonix and back over Easter in the C2 - it would have been a bit of a pain in the RS
I dont want to replicate the RS - more searching for a Touring version, and I am getting there
- I prefer the feel of the 16's on the road, just more comfortable on the long journey's but I do like the wide D 90 on the C2 - it seems in keeping with the car and not trying to make it something that it isn't - the RS is a very different kettle of fish but not necessarily a better road car
- i am sounding more nerdy than you !! - look forward to seeing your car, mine had a full 6 or 7 pages editorial in 911 Porsche World last year - red and standard looking but a blast to drive and live with - I bet you cant wait to get your car back - details please !!
Old 04-12-2007, 06:47 PM
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ilko
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Here's a quote from http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ on casting and forging:

Metallurgy 101
We usually think of metal as a simple solid material, without any internal structure, like putty. In reality, it's a jumble of crystals, all grown into each other. Usually, the individual crystals are small enough that we don't see them, but other times we do. If you can find a big, cast bronze door handle, look at the back of it, where thousands of hands polish it smooth, and etch it with their acids. You will probably see a splotchy pattern, where each different shaded region is a different crystal, in a pattern resembling frost on a window. The process of formation is much the same. The grain size in a wheel is much, much finer than that.

Casting
The quality of cast wheels varies dramatically, depending on process, and sometimes on variables beyond the control of the manufacturer, such as ambient temperature or even humidity. In general, pressure casting, in which the metal is pumped into the mold, is better than just pouring it in. Castings tend to be porous -- some carburetors actually leaked fuel through the metal, with no crack or visible flaw present. Porosity is bad, because it means there are places where the metal isn't in direct contact with more metal on all sides. Voids, which tend to form in the spaces between crystals (a chicken and egg situation), are where cracks begin. Larger, chunky grains may beget larger voids, and cracks along crystal boundaries will have farther to travel. All these points mean that cast wheels must contain more metal to achieve an acceptable strength, and are thus heavier. Still, cast wheels can be made to a high standard with attention to quality processes. The vast majority of alloy wheels are cast, and provide many years of good service.

Forging
Forged wheels take advantage of what happens when metal is cold worked. Cold working doesn't necessarily mean you'd want to touch the materials while they're in process, it means the procedures are done at a temperature below the point where the metal starts to melt and regrow a new crystal structure. Just as the spaces between a metal's crystals may hold flaws, the crystals themselves are full of imperfections called discontinuities. They may take a variety of forms, but discontinuities all share one important quality. By traveling through the crystal lattice of the individual grains, they allow the metal to change shape without fracturing like a diamond. When a load is applied to a metal object, it deforms slightly. When the load is removed, it regains its original shape. This happens because discontinuities move a little, and move back. If the load is high enough, the discontinuities will move until they reach the edge of their crystal, or until they run into another discontinuity.

Generally, discontinuities move one atom at a time, and their movement is guided by the regular structure of the crystal. If a discontinuity in the structure runs into another, the regularity is interrupted, and they may become tangled, and can't return to their starting position. This has two effects. 1) When the load is removed from the metal, it will not return to its original shape. 2) The metal is more resistant to deformation in the future, because there are fewer discontinuities available to move around. This description of the process is a single case of what is actually happening by the billions.

What we can measure is the average of them all. The idea behind forging is to get, on average, the right number of discontinuities tangled around each other, with crystals oriented in the right direction, so that the metal is very strong and resistant to further deformation. This is a delicate balance, because too much cold working makes the metal brittle, so that it fractures instead of absorbing loads. You can see how this works for yourself: Bend a paper clip back and forth many times until it breaks. It begins soft, then gets stiffer, before finally fracturing.

Forging also changes the shape and alignment of the crystal structure. When molten metal solidifies, its grain structure is non-directional, amorphous, grains in the sense of "grains" of sand. As metal is forged, these grains are stretched in the direction of deformation, making them more like the "grain" of wood. The metal is formed so the grain goes in the directions where strength is needed most. Think of particle board versus real wood. One is cheap, heavy, and easily formed into a variety of shapes. The other is strong and light. The forging process, because of the vast pressures involved, also compacts the metal, eliminating porosity and the voids that can be a source of cracks or corrosion. The result is that less metal is required to achieve a given strength, meaning lighter, stronger wheels can be made.
Complete article here: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/te...ide/index.html
Old 04-12-2007, 08:12 PM
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rodders
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Holy joseph and thats just the wheel
- great article - now i know -
- how do I know if they are cast or forged - could a cast wheel be exactly the same dimensions as a forged wheel and would it be as strong ?
Old 04-12-2007, 11:40 PM
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garrett376
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Originally Posted by meek
Hi Rodders. D90's were never available as forged items.
The C4RS Lightweight had forged D-90 wheels. They did exist for a few cars...
Old 04-13-2007, 03:45 AM
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thanks garrett - i am just extrapolating from Adrian's book - i cant find any more info
- is there any down side on the cast wheels ?
Old 04-13-2007, 05:35 AM
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meek
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Rodders, don't the 928 wheels have 'holes' in the inner rims for the tyre pressure senors? '90 onwards models of the 944 Turbo had 7.5 and 9 16" D90s, but they were still cast as opposed to forged; Porsche dropped the forged items as standard kit. Too expensive? I have just ordered a copy of the Bently book; can't wait

garrett376, forged RS D90s....that would be nice. They must be rare as hens' teeth. Mind you, I think people do confuse the term D90, using it for the CS forged items becuase of the similarity in appearance. Anyone got any pics of a C4RS?
Old 04-13-2007, 10:44 AM
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Meek - wheels arrived - overnight service, very good.
At first sight the 9's seem brand new but they carry the 928 part number as referenced in Adrian's book.
The 7's are marked up as a 7 but seem to carry the 6 part number and they seem to be ET 55.
In Adrian's book that is a 6 inch wheel
- but the wheel clearly carries a 7 but 55 either side of the valve, the ET should be 52.3 according to the bible
i will clean them up later and do a bit more research - any thoughts ??
You will see pics of the C4 RS with the 9" rears in Adrian's book - but whether they were casr or forged is unclear - but if Garrett says they were forged, they probably were - he knows a lot more than me.
You will enjoy the book!!
Old 04-13-2007, 10:46 AM
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Meek I didnt notice any holes - now I am scared - check later
- but the supplier know they are for a 964 ....
Old 04-13-2007, 11:01 AM
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Devils_son
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Originally Posted by garrett376
The C4RS Lightweight had forged D-90 wheels. They did exist for a few cars...

If I am not mistaken they were magnesiums as well...
Old 04-13-2007, 11:09 AM
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meek
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Rodders, are they from Porshapart? They can be a bit hit an miss ( 'casual' ); make sure you check them thoroughly before fitting. Last set of Cups I had from them, apparently 're-finished', had one wheel that had clearly been weld repaired, badly. They did exchange it quickly, but that was the second time I have had issues with them, and will be the last time I use them.

Can't wait to get the book. I am already learning from you guys and haven't even got the book yet! I didn't know that D90s were ever supplied as forged and now I do Anyone on the list have a C4RS?
Old 04-13-2007, 11:58 AM
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Heirsh
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http://www.rpmsportscars.com/door25.htm
Old 04-13-2007, 05:11 PM
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Meek - yes they are from Porshapart - but the 9's are like brand new !!
The 7's are very good and all the wheels seem as if they have the original finish with lacquer so I am a little reluctant to referb at this time
I did phone Steve at Douglas Valley but they didn't have any thing for me.
Originality is nice - there is a little surface corrosion on one wheel - a minute bit on one of the 7's and curb rash at all on any.
- one or two marks on the 7 virtually no marks on the 9's.
I checked the numbers on the 7's and they are as I said - the part no is apparently for a 6" wheel - but comparing the 7's to my existing 6's, there is a definite difference.
- Oh woe is me - what is the truth !!
- You will enjoy the book and the site

- that C4 RS is very special


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