Is it possible to get a working airbag in a 89?
03-07-2007, 09:01 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
If its just a feeling of safty and not real safty you are after , then go read up on what air bags do and don't do . If an air bag worked for belted in drivers , all sorts of race cars would have airbags .
03-07-2007, 09:51 PM
#6
Race Director
Originally Posted by Indycam
Yes you could , but why would you want to ?
If you use the belt , the air bag does not do much if anything .
If you use the belt , the air bag does not do much if anything .
Sorry, but I can't let this misinformation slide. The airbag when used with the seatbelt has been shown to save many lives, and significantly reduce injuries in major collisions. There are always the anecdotal stories of people injured by airbags, but they are not statistically significant.
A very close friend of mine was saved by her airbag in a 50 MPH head on collision. She was in the hospital for 3 weeks, but is fine now. If you don't want yours, that's fine, but please don't endanger others.
03-08-2007, 01:39 AM
#7
Nordschleife Master
sundog
I've read the studies that show no improvement over just belts .
If you have data that shows that airbags work I'd like to read it .
What I have read showed that people belted in were not helped by one airbag .
The question is about one air bag , not the new multi bag systems ,
being put into a modern , soft steering wheel , crushable shaft car .
If a person is belted in , they are not saved by a 2nd restrant system , in a one bag setup .
If a bag were an improvement over belts alone , why have they not been used / mandated in high end race cars ? Can't be the cost , can't be the weight . Why does nascar etc etc etc let them race without airbags ? Could it be that even if used they offer no real improvement over belts alone ?
Untill you show good studies , real world studies , I'll go with what I've alraedy learned .
Not anecdotal stories about how one person you know may or may not have been alive .
Was she belted in ? If so , how do you know that it was the bag that saved her life ?
http://nanonline.org/nandistance/mtb...pl/belts2.html
I've read the studies that show no improvement over just belts .
If you have data that shows that airbags work I'd like to read it .
What I have read showed that people belted in were not helped by one airbag .
The question is about one air bag , not the new multi bag systems ,
being put into a modern , soft steering wheel , crushable shaft car .
If a person is belted in , they are not saved by a 2nd restrant system , in a one bag setup .
If a bag were an improvement over belts alone , why have they not been used / mandated in high end race cars ? Can't be the cost , can't be the weight . Why does nascar etc etc etc let them race without airbags ? Could it be that even if used they offer no real improvement over belts alone ?
Untill you show good studies , real world studies , I'll go with what I've alraedy learned .
Not anecdotal stories about how one person you know may or may not have been alive .
Was she belted in ? If so , how do you know that it was the bag that saved her life ?
http://nanonline.org/nandistance/mtb...pl/belts2.html
Trending Topics
03-08-2007, 02:17 AM
#8
Race Director
Originally Posted by Indycam
sundog
I've read the studies that show no improvement over just belts .
If you have data that shows that airbags work I'd like to read it .
I've read the studies that show no improvement over just belts .
If you have data that shows that airbags work I'd like to read it .
Effectiveness of Occupant Protection Systems and Their Use
Annals of Emergency Medicine, Volume 25, Issue 6, Pages 794-798
Originally Posted by Indycam
What I have read showed that people belted in were not helped by one airbag .
The question is about one air bag , not the new multi bag systems ,
being put into a modern , soft steering wheel , crushable shaft car .
If a person is belted in , they are not saved by a 2nd restrant system , in a one bag setup .
The question is about one air bag , not the new multi bag systems ,
being put into a modern , soft steering wheel , crushable shaft car .
If a person is belted in , they are not saved by a 2nd restrant system , in a one bag setup .
Originally Posted by Indycam
If a bag were an improvement over belts alone , why have they not been used / mandated in high end race cars ? Can't be the cost , can't be the weight . Why does nascar etc etc etc let them race without airbags ? Could it be that even if used they offer no real improvement over belts alone ?
Originally Posted by Indycam
Untill you show good studies , real world studies , I'll go with what I've alraedy learned .
Not anecdotal stories about how one person you know may or may not have been alive .
Was she belted in ? If so , how do you know that it was the bag that saved her life ?
Not anecdotal stories about how one person you know may or may not have been alive .
Was she belted in ? If so , how do you know that it was the bag that saved her life ?
A number of studies say that airbags don't reduce the injury rates, because they encourage drivers to drive more agressively. This does not mean that they are not more effective than a seat belt alone, it means that the data are not comparable one on one to a scientifically controlled test.
If I were given the opportunity to buy a car for my daughter and I could save $XXX.XX by buying her a model without an airbag, I would spend the money. Her life is more important.
03-08-2007, 01:11 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
"But, given conflicting data, would you rather not have a secondary system that has been shown in studies to reduce injuries and fatalities, than not have it?"
I've read your first linked story and it said , when alls said and done , airbags do little or nothing for people who belt in . I know its easy to focus on what we would like to see , but real world big picture , air bags do not do much for people belted in . If they are restrained by the belts , the airbag is restraining them more ? An analogy , Build a dam , then build another downstream . The 1st dam holds back all the water and the 2nd dam is dry .
"If I were given the opportunity to buy a car for my daughter and I could save $XXX.XX by buying her a model without an airbag, I would spend the money. Her life is more important."
I highly suggest a new multi bag system . That is something that really , imho , is worth spending money on . That and real good driver training . Not the minimal training that just gets almost everyone a " drivers license ". I think you are someone who will train your child to be in control , how to stop the car in the very shortest distance possable , how to brake hard and steer the car at the same time , etc etc etc . I highly doubt that you are the sort that of parent that just hands over the keys cause the kid passed a high school drivers ed class .
"Believe what you will, but please don't compare daily driving to racing."
Thank you but I will compare humans inside cars crashing to other people inside cars crashing .
"because they encourage drivers to drive more aggressively."
Thats a whole different kettle of fish , and I did not base my statements on that , nor did I bring that up .
"I bet Dale Earnhardt would've liked an airbag to potentially save his life before the HANS system was mandated."
They still don't have airbags post D.E. . Dale Jr does not have an airbag in his race car . They have decided that airbags don't offer much or anything for the drivers , even post Dales death .
"I think that may be a reason. Also, that for the safety of the other drivers, many race drivers actually have some control of the vehicle after the initial incident thereby preventing further collisions."
I don't buy it , a race car driver "saved" by an air bag then looses control .
A race car driver smacks a multi G smack and can keep control of the car except for that deflated bag hanging from the wheel ?
A little bit of cloth hanging from the steering wheel freaks out the driver and that causes them to looses control ? Or a little bit of cloth dangeling from the hub causes the wheel to no longer be useable ? I don't buy it .
Thank you for backing down from
"Sorry, but I can't let this misinformation slide. The airbag when used with the seatbelt has been shown to save many lives, and significantly reduce injuries in major collisions."
To
"Yes there is no consensus."
Next step would be maybe to see and say that you can see that people who are belted in are not
helped much if at all by a one bag system .
I've read your first linked story and it said , when alls said and done , airbags do little or nothing for people who belt in . I know its easy to focus on what we would like to see , but real world big picture , air bags do not do much for people belted in . If they are restrained by the belts , the airbag is restraining them more ? An analogy , Build a dam , then build another downstream . The 1st dam holds back all the water and the 2nd dam is dry .
"If I were given the opportunity to buy a car for my daughter and I could save $XXX.XX by buying her a model without an airbag, I would spend the money. Her life is more important."
I highly suggest a new multi bag system . That is something that really , imho , is worth spending money on . That and real good driver training . Not the minimal training that just gets almost everyone a " drivers license ". I think you are someone who will train your child to be in control , how to stop the car in the very shortest distance possable , how to brake hard and steer the car at the same time , etc etc etc . I highly doubt that you are the sort that of parent that just hands over the keys cause the kid passed a high school drivers ed class .
"Believe what you will, but please don't compare daily driving to racing."
Thank you but I will compare humans inside cars crashing to other people inside cars crashing .
"because they encourage drivers to drive more aggressively."
Thats a whole different kettle of fish , and I did not base my statements on that , nor did I bring that up .
"I bet Dale Earnhardt would've liked an airbag to potentially save his life before the HANS system was mandated."
They still don't have airbags post D.E. . Dale Jr does not have an airbag in his race car . They have decided that airbags don't offer much or anything for the drivers , even post Dales death .
"I think that may be a reason. Also, that for the safety of the other drivers, many race drivers actually have some control of the vehicle after the initial incident thereby preventing further collisions."
I don't buy it , a race car driver "saved" by an air bag then looses control .
A race car driver smacks a multi G smack and can keep control of the car except for that deflated bag hanging from the wheel ?
A little bit of cloth hanging from the steering wheel freaks out the driver and that causes them to looses control ? Or a little bit of cloth dangeling from the hub causes the wheel to no longer be useable ? I don't buy it .
Thank you for backing down from
"Sorry, but I can't let this misinformation slide. The airbag when used with the seatbelt has been shown to save many lives, and significantly reduce injuries in major collisions."
To
"Yes there is no consensus."
Next step would be maybe to see and say that you can see that people who are belted in are not
helped much if at all by a one bag system .
03-08-2007, 01:22 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
I would say no, its not practical or economical to retro-fit an airbag system onto car that never had it.
I have turned two airbag equipped cars, into non-airbag cars for track use. And I would never think about trying to go the otherway. The parts would be extremely expensive, and probably not something that would make much sense to buy used, obviously not out of a wrecked/parts car. Install would be problematic, locating and mounting the sensors, installing the wiring harness and getting everything connected. Turn signal stalk is likely different also for a 964 (w/ and w/o airbags) - it is for a 944.
I have turned two airbag equipped cars, into non-airbag cars for track use. And I would never think about trying to go the otherway. The parts would be extremely expensive, and probably not something that would make much sense to buy used, obviously not out of a wrecked/parts car. Install would be problematic, locating and mounting the sensors, installing the wiring harness and getting everything connected. Turn signal stalk is likely different also for a 964 (w/ and w/o airbags) - it is for a 944.
03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
#11
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In regards to proving an airbag isn't safe because they aren't used in racecars, racing and street car driving is not related. Racecars don't have airbags for many reasons, a few of which being:
Weight - Racecars are meant to go fast, the computers, sensors and bags themselves weigh alot. No one is interested in adding weigh to a racecar for any reason except maybe more HP.
Complexity - Racecars are constantely bumping, nudging, and making contact. They spin and hit things and low speeds constantely have incidences which could potentially trigger an airbag. Small crashes in which the car is still driveable after occur all the time, this would be a mess with an airbag system.
Safety- Post crash the main concern is getting out of the car. Having a large or multiple smaller airbags would make it more difficult to exit the car and therefore put the driver in danger. It also makes the duties of the saftey crew that much more difficult, risky and time consuming.... exactly the opposite of what saftey crews are looking for.
Finally, the main reason that racecars don't have airbags is because they are not needed. That is not to say that they aren't needed because a racecar has a 3 pt belt. Most racecars have at least 5 or 6 point seatbelts which hold you in so tightly that you would never be able to hit the steering wheel or windshield (which is what an airbag prevents). Besides this, drivers have head and neck restraints and helmet which limit their movement further so that ideally they are moving very little and are already protected by the helmet.
My longest post ever...
Weight - Racecars are meant to go fast, the computers, sensors and bags themselves weigh alot. No one is interested in adding weigh to a racecar for any reason except maybe more HP.
Complexity - Racecars are constantely bumping, nudging, and making contact. They spin and hit things and low speeds constantely have incidences which could potentially trigger an airbag. Small crashes in which the car is still driveable after occur all the time, this would be a mess with an airbag system.
Safety- Post crash the main concern is getting out of the car. Having a large or multiple smaller airbags would make it more difficult to exit the car and therefore put the driver in danger. It also makes the duties of the saftey crew that much more difficult, risky and time consuming.... exactly the opposite of what saftey crews are looking for.
Finally, the main reason that racecars don't have airbags is because they are not needed. That is not to say that they aren't needed because a racecar has a 3 pt belt. Most racecars have at least 5 or 6 point seatbelts which hold you in so tightly that you would never be able to hit the steering wheel or windshield (which is what an airbag prevents). Besides this, drivers have head and neck restraints and helmet which limit their movement further so that ideally they are moving very little and are already protected by the helmet.
My longest post ever...
03-08-2007, 03:02 PM
#12
Advanced
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oddjob says probably you should not buy the airbag parts used. If you decided to buy the entire airbag system parts new I am guessing they would cost almost as much as the entire 89 C4 that you are looking to purchase. I buy all my airbag parts used usually out of converted 964s headed for the racetrack. There would be a lot of work to convert an 89 C4 to airbags including the the airbag wiring harness that is intergral with the control module. Also, needed would be the I/P cluster warning light gauge along with a lot of other items. But, of course, you then would be able to join the chorus of 964 owners wondering and asking how do I get my airbag warning lamp off. If the airbags are a critical factor in your purchase decision for a 964 then you should consider buying a 1990 or later model year 964 which had them standard for the US market. Converting a 1989 C4 is not the answer.
03-08-2007, 05:27 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
"Weight -"
As with all other Safety devices , weight is added to a car , if all cars in a class are required to add the same equipment , no advantage to any car / team . The rules are such that most cars have to be so many pounds , if a car was built not under the rules , it would hit the track lighter . Many many cars have weight added to them so that they will weigh enough to pass inspection .
"Complexity "
Have you checked out an F1 car lately ?
Ferrari is selling some of its "old" race cars , you can not even start the car without a tech with a ferrari computer . The basic airbag system is simple .
"Small crashes in which the car is still driveable after occur all the time, this would be a mess with an airbag system."
The airbag system could be set to any level of Gs . It could be set up to only fire off it 1000 Gs . So small taps would be nothing .
"would make it more difficult to exit the car and therefore put the driver in danger."
Have you ever felt / touched a used airbag ?
Have you ever climbed into a window , belted into a real race car , put up the net , put on the steering wheel , hooked up the teathers etc etc ?
And if the bag saves a driver , the driver is much more likely to be able to get out under their own power . So saying that a otherwise hurt driver is going to be held back ....
If the bag , and we are talking about a one bag system , was on the wheel , and the driver disconects the wheel and tosses it aside , the bags out of the way .
"Most racecars have at least 5 or 6 point seatbelts"
The extra belts .
Another cross chest belt so that if the crash flings the driver out of the seat sideways
the diver cant be flung out side ways . A one bag system does not take the place of this belt .
The anti submarine belt/s between the legs keep the drivers body from being flung under the lap and shoulder belts . A one bag system does not take the place of this belt .
In a frontal crash where a bag may or may not help , the cross chest belt is the restraint that holds the chest back . If the chest is held back as it should be , how can the air bag also restrain the chest ? If the chest and lap belts are hooked up and its not a intrusion type crash , impacting the windshied is next to never hapening . But if the crash is crushing the passenger compartment , the bag will not protect you , the windshield / roof / etc will be brought to you .
As with all other Safety devices , weight is added to a car , if all cars in a class are required to add the same equipment , no advantage to any car / team . The rules are such that most cars have to be so many pounds , if a car was built not under the rules , it would hit the track lighter . Many many cars have weight added to them so that they will weigh enough to pass inspection .
"Complexity "
Have you checked out an F1 car lately ?
Ferrari is selling some of its "old" race cars , you can not even start the car without a tech with a ferrari computer . The basic airbag system is simple .
"Small crashes in which the car is still driveable after occur all the time, this would be a mess with an airbag system."
The airbag system could be set to any level of Gs . It could be set up to only fire off it 1000 Gs . So small taps would be nothing .
"would make it more difficult to exit the car and therefore put the driver in danger."
Have you ever felt / touched a used airbag ?
Have you ever climbed into a window , belted into a real race car , put up the net , put on the steering wheel , hooked up the teathers etc etc ?
And if the bag saves a driver , the driver is much more likely to be able to get out under their own power . So saying that a otherwise hurt driver is going to be held back ....
If the bag , and we are talking about a one bag system , was on the wheel , and the driver disconects the wheel and tosses it aside , the bags out of the way .
"Most racecars have at least 5 or 6 point seatbelts"
The extra belts .
Another cross chest belt so that if the crash flings the driver out of the seat sideways
the diver cant be flung out side ways . A one bag system does not take the place of this belt .
The anti submarine belt/s between the legs keep the drivers body from being flung under the lap and shoulder belts . A one bag system does not take the place of this belt .
In a frontal crash where a bag may or may not help , the cross chest belt is the restraint that holds the chest back . If the chest is held back as it should be , how can the air bag also restrain the chest ? If the chest and lap belts are hooked up and its not a intrusion type crash , impacting the windshied is next to never hapening . But if the crash is crushing the passenger compartment , the bag will not protect you , the windshield / roof / etc will be brought to you .