When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Would anyone happen to know if changing a 964's original paint color would lower the value? For example if I found a guards red and wanted to change it to a rare color like Amaranth Violet or Gulf Blue. Apologies if this is not the right place to ask this question. If so, please let me know and I will move it. Thanks!
People severely underestimate the value of "sorting". And it's all the little things that add up. And fast. After looking at many, many cars one thing I have learned is that the assessment of "sorted" varies HIGHLY by individual. :-)
Originally Posted by cobalt
If they don't have hidden issues like covered up accident damage they have little problems that will add up in a short time.
If I were a shop charging $100 or more an hour to work on these I can only imagine how much the cost to fix and clean this up would be.
I look at a half dozen or so of these cars a month and not many are close to a number 3 and sold as number 2's with lots of hidden problems like this.
Many people buy and drive and don't realize how many little problems can go unnoticed and eventually turn a nice car into a mess.
When a truly nice car comes along they are pricey but usually rightfully so. So even passing a PPI doesn't necessarily mean a car that won't cost you so if you can find one ....... and finding these cars with less than 60k miles on them needing nothing is becoming nearly impossible.
These quotes are the real $value highlights. Parts are EXPENSIVE, labor is EXPENSIVE. And it all depends on what your version of "well sorted" is.
I looked at many cars for quite a period of time, and finally decided to buy something that I knew needed work, because I do all my work anyway and I had looked at many cars with substandard (my personal standards) work from "good" shops.
I was still surprised at how much little stuff adds up. My car was nice appearing and had no show stopping mechanical issues. I have put about $15k into it in parts, did all the labor myself. I cant imagine what the bill would have been at a Porsche "specialist".
Beware of sellers and especially dealers inflating the condition of a car. From a collector point of view, a #1 car is a unicorn, a rare, better than new Pebble Beach show winner. A #2 car is essentially perfect, Seinfelds cars that sold last year were described in auction reports as #2 cars - and they were damn nice restored cars, some with a few miles on them. If a fully restored car with some miles on it is a #2, you quickly see that there is no such thing as a 20-30 thousand mile #2. Most nice driven cars are #3's. Some break down the #2 and #3 categories as #2+ or #2- etc, the main point is that a #2 isn't just a nice car, it should be capable of winning shows. There is nothing wrong with driving a #3, in fact a #2 that gets driven is going to turn into a #3 pretty quickly, and it will take a lot of work to get it back into #2 shape.
The problem with trying to value 911's now is that there are #4 cars that have needs that people are trying to pawn off as #2 or #3, ie shined up turds. 964's are generally about 25 years old now, and most were driven a fair amount when new. They almost always will be needing rubber parts like hoses and weatherstripping, just replacing all the oil hoses can eat up a pretty good sum. Not to mention other things like tires, sounds silly but I didn't check the dates on my cars tires because they had so much tread, they were 10 years old, there's a grand out the door that I didn't account for in negotiations. Other little things like that minor crack in the taillights that you didn't worry about, another thousand bucks, and the new ones still look a little pink to me.
The whole point is that a REALLY NICE, REALLY WELL SORTED 964 is worth a lot of money. Turning an OK car into a really nice car will cost you more than buying the really nice car in the first place. The hard part is determining which ones are REALLY NICE. In other words, if you want to end up with a #2, dont start with a barely #3 or a #4.
Would anyone happen to know if changing a 964's original paint color would lower the value? For example if I found a guards red and wanted to change it to a rare color like Amaranth Violet or Gulf Blue. Apologies if this is not the right place to ask this question. If so, please let me know and I will move it. Thanks!
In general, the answer might be yes. But there's so much depth to answer the question. Let's face it, finding one rare colors like u mentioned is pretty much impossible nowadays. So it's down to how good & how far you take it to make it right. A color change can be as low as few thousands to thirty, forty, fifty thousand paint job. It's all about the work,the details, how far u go to make it right. Any route u go u probably won't get your money back but it's the enjoyment u get out of it that's priceless.
It's all about doing it right or not do it at all. But it's a big commitment.
In general, the answer might be yes. But there's so much depth to answer the question. Let's face it, finding one rare colors like u mentioned is pretty much impossible nowadays. So it's down to how good & how far you take it to make it right. A color change can be as low as few thousands to thirty, forty, fifty thousand paint job. It's all about the work,the details, how far u go to make it right. Any route u go u probably won't get your money back but it's the enjoyment u get out of it that's priceless.
It's all about doing it right or not do it at all. But it's a big commitment.
Thank you for the reply and confirming my suspicions. I guess losing some value won't be too bad considering I would plan on keep one forever. Of course if I find one that is HaHa. Given some of the pricing posted in the thread I would be definitely looking for a #3 type car to be driven to the track and my own personal enjoyment.
These quotes are the real $value highlights. Parts are EXPENSIVE, labor is EXPENSIVE. And it all depends on what your version of "well sorted" is.
I looked at many cars for quite a period of time, and finally decided to buy something that I knew needed work, because I do all my work anyway and I had looked at many cars with substandard (my personal standards) work from "good" shops.
I was still surprised at how much little stuff adds up. My car was nice appearing and had no show stopping mechanical issues. I have put about $15k into it in parts, did all the labor myself. I cant imagine what the bill would have been at a Porsche "specialist".
Beware of sellers and especially dealers inflating the condition of a car. From a collector point of view, a #1 car is a unicorn, a rare, better than new Pebble Beach show winner. A #2 car is essentially perfect, Seinfelds cars that sold last year were described in auction reports as #2 cars - and they were damn nice restored cars, some with a few miles on them. If a fully restored car with some miles on it is a #2, you quickly see that there is no such thing as a 20-30 thousand mile #2. Most nice driven cars are #3's. Some break down the #2 and #3 categories as #2+ or #2- etc, the main point is that a #2 isn't just a nice car, it should be capable of winning shows. There is nothing wrong with driving a #3, in fact a #2 that gets driven is going to turn into a #3 pretty quickly, and it will take a lot of work to get it back into #2 shape.
The problem with trying to value 911's now is that there are #4 cars that have needs that people are trying to pawn off as #2 or #3, ie shined up turds. 964's are generally about 25 years old now, and most were driven a fair amount when new. They almost always will be needing rubber parts like hoses and weatherstripping, just replacing all the oil hoses can eat up a pretty good sum. Not to mention other things like tires, sounds silly but I didn't check the dates on my cars tires because they had so much tread, they were 10 years old, there's a grand out the door that I didn't account for in negotiations. Other little things like that minor crack in the taillights that you didn't worry about, another thousand bucks, and the new ones still look a little pink to me.
The whole point is that a REALLY NICE, REALLY WELL SORTED 964 is worth a lot of money. Turning an OK car into a really nice car will cost you more than buying the really nice car in the first place. The hard part is determining which ones are REALLY NICE. In other words, if you want to end up with a #2, dont start with a barely #3 or a #4.
Not that I am disagreeing but what I find is most cars on the market should be considered #5 but Hagerty doesn't go that far.
So using their vision of a number 4
CURRENT & HISTORICAL VALUES
View current vehicle values and see how they’ve changed over time in 3-year, 5-year and to-date intervals. Compare these values to other vehicles and benchmark financial indices.
Current Values
#1 Concours$48,400
#2 Excellent$37,000
#3 Good$27,800
#4 Fair$18,000
#4 vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present. A #4 vehicle can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a #4 vehicle.
It really clumps 99% of the cars out there into one category. What bothers me is most all cars on the market today IMO fall short of this criteria by a long shot and only a handful are #4's.
The other problem is their pricing guide is usually unrealistic. Shall we say Less than #4 cars are seeing prices higher than $18,000 and this is for a 1994 C2 which is the most desirable 964 C2 assuming you can find one since only 160 were imported to the US. Based on these numbers the rolled C2 track car that sold on BAT for $24k should never happen yet it does all the time.
So how does the newbie figure out what it has taken me decades to figure out? As much as the insurance industry wants to standardize values for cars like these it is always a case by case determination as far as I am concerned.
Not to sound conceded but all of my cars are about as nice as you can find and I would not sell any of them for close to what Hagerty has delineated as their true value. Seeing so much trash pass hands and watching to peoples dismay that the car is not what they felt they were buying has soured many on the 964. Unfortunately the truth is we need to get away from these categories and people have to start realizing that these are highly involved cars that are worth more than what the Insurance companies claim and that a truly nice one has no max value. If you want a nice 911 and find one buy it at whatever price. You will appreciate that you did in years to come.
The other problem is their pricing guide is usually unrealistic. Shall we say Less than #4 cars are seeing prices higher than $18,000 and this is for a 1994 C2 which is the most desirable 964 C2 assuming you can find one since only 160 were imported to the US. Based on these numbers the rolled C2 track car that sold on BAT for $24k should never happen yet it does all the time.
So how does the newbie figure out what it has taken me decades to figure out? As much as the insurance industry wants to standardize values for cars like these it is always a case by case determination as far as I am concerned.
Seeing so much trash pass hands and watching to peoples dismay that the car is not what they felt they were buying has soured many on the 964. Unfortunately the truth is we need to get away from these categories and people have to start realizing that these are highly involved cars that are worth more than what the Insurance companies claim and that a truly nice one has no max value. If you want a nice 911 and find one buy it at whatever price. You will appreciate that you did in years to come.
Those value numbers are completely unrealistic. There is no such thing as an $18k 964. Nor anything that is not a wreck in the $20's.
Hagerty doesn't explain how they get prices, but I assume they must include public auction prices, and they also have a questionnaire they use when you drop coverage, I know they have used it on me, not sure if is 100% used.
All the talk of values is a little strange to me. In the performance end of the musclecar world, people dont dwell on it. A 67 Camaro for instance may be worth $15k if it is a junker, or the sky is the limit $200-$300k if it is something really odd or a complete over the top end build. It is all based on the car and what it is, including mods. I sold a 67 Camaro before I bought my 911, it wasn't anything too radical, but it was a pretty nice car. It was a pretty close to straight swap price wise to my 964, even including the money I had to put into it. Coming in from outside the Porsche world, 911's looked cheap. And evidently, many people agree and prices have risen, but what some people call the "bubble", was nothing more than just 911's catching up with the rest of the performance car market. There will never be sub $20k 911's again, and sub $30k ones are probably junk.
My 964 probably had a sticker near $70k, in todays dollars that would be nearly $130k. It doesn't make sense to argue whether it should sell for 25% or 30% of that value like either number is some fantastic investment. That same $130k would buy a pretty well equipped new 911, which would depreciate the cost of a 964 in the first three years of ownership. Apples to oranges? Maybe not.
The cost of maintenance and repairs will never let drive able 911's depreciate too low, unless people decide they just dont want them anymore. I dont see that ever happening, especially to 964's of which there are very few anyways.
if it is original condition no accidents etc and as described being a 94 come spring I would expect it to bring more. Most Porsche's seem to bring more for the last production year. How many 94's exist never mind come up for sale? I would guess considerably less than 160 imported. How many were imported to Canada Vs US? How many crashed and parted out or tracked?
If this were a 91 or older then that range makes sense but not a 94.
Edit:
My response was based on car being in the US I have no idea what the SA market is like.
There are many 964's on auction sites, not selling, from turbo's just sitting as well as c2 C4 and pricing to high, some are saying pricing is falling ?
There are many 964's on auction sites, not selling, from turbo's just sitting as well as c2 C4 and pricing to high, some are saying pricing is falling ?
hahaha,... that article was a hoot to read. But mostly because I am coming at it from a unique perspective...
I had just turned 16 (early 80's), got my drivers license when hot muscle cars from the late 60's were easy to buy. Sunk my teeth into a '69 Chevelle & then added a host of other muscle,... all while working in a {less-than-stellar} Indy Porsche shop on 914's, 912's and occasionally nicer models. Fell in love with Porsche cars, history, their family, & everything in between. But didn't actually buy one until the early 90's.
So here I sit, still with '68, '69 Camaro's (& a highly desirable one too '68 RS/SS 396/375-M21-3:73),... yet if I were to sell something in my garage, it would NOT be my Porsche's.
so is it time to unload a Camaro or two?
But it is just funny for me to read an article like that,... where they only take into consideration primarily "Celebrity" cars & #1's, and then give overall market analysis & trends trickling down to the average driver.
But indeed, as I watch the auctions & look at results,... there does seem to be a lot of buyers willing to spend from $30k-$50k. Above that?, it's the outliers.
hahaha,... that article was a hoot to read. But mostly because I am coming at it from a unique perspective
So here I sit, still with '68, '69 Camaro's (& a highly desirable one too '68 RS/SS 396/375-M21-3:73),... yet if I were to sell something in my garage, it would NOT be my Porsche's.
so is it time to unload a Camaro or two?
But it is just funny for me to read an article like that,... where they only take into consideration primarily "Celebrity" cars & #1's, and then give overall market analysis & trends trickling down to the average driver.
But indeed, as I watch the auctions & look at results,... there does seem to be a lot of buyers willing to spend from $30k-$50k. Above that?, it's the outliers.
=Steve
Not that unique, I have old American iron in the garage too, and sold one of my camaro's last summer after I found I always took the 964 for drives. Still have a one owner 68 ss. I agree completely on the other points, rare cars are their own market, hard to make a driver fit into the trend.
01-11-2017, 10:42 AM
