KirkF

Ok, Maybe I'm over reacting a bit? But honestly how can it be this difficult to figure out the right parts for a car?

(This may take a bit of reading but please bear with me!)

As I am sure quite a few of you have read, I dropped my engine out to look at clutch problems. I found an oil leak from the oil sensor and clutch wear to be the problem.

In reading Adrians book, I was led to understand that the 1989 C4 had a 19lb flywheel. After measuring the weight of my flywheel I determined it to be 12lbs. A LWF as the previous owner had stated was installed. (And the reason for my oscillating idle issues)

So I decided to replace all the clutch components back to factory specs:

I went to my local Porsche dealer and I got a parts quote. Then I went online to sunset import and got a quote from them.

Sunset feels that the part number of the clutch repair kit I have from my porsche dealer is the wrong one. My porsche dealer thinks its the right one.

So I went on to www.pca.org and provided them with the information, and they responded to me quite quickly. However the information they gave me is different from what I have read at other sources. (Or misread?)

Here is the message I posted at PCA and the reply. Can anyone please help me verify the truth? (In the end, all I care about is the right parts #s so I can get this order going!)

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Here is the link to the PCA site with my question and answer:

http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={1DFC7FF6-4118-4C7E-9676-B10E8FACD1AA

********************************************************

Here is the question / response

Your question posted on PCA.org has been answered:

Classification: Transmission
Subject: 1989 964 C4 Clutch & Flywheel Replacement (Parts #s)
Model: Carrera 4
Year: 1989
Total Mileage: 200,000 km
Car Use: Street use only

Question:
Hi,

I was wondering if you could help me with the following problem:

I have a 1989 964 C4

The previous owner of this car replaced the stock flywheel (19lb SMF) with a 12lb LWF.

I am removing this setup and replacing it with the stock setup, however the parts for this year appear to be unique to 1989 only.

I am having trouble figuring out what the correct porsche part number is for the clutch repair kit. Different Porsche dealers have given me different numbers!

I think it is either:

950 116 911 00 clutch repair kit
or
964-116-911-02 clutch repair kit

Could you please tell me which one is correct? Dealing with the first year of manufacture of this model is tricky!

My complete parts list to restore the clutch/flywheel to stock is:

PART # DESCRIPTION QUANTITY
--------------------------------------------
950 116 086 06 clutch release fork 1
950 116 813 06 clutch guide tube 1
950 116 710 04 clutch shaft 1
999 113 418 40 operating shaft gasket 2
999 201 339 00 operating shaft bush 1
999-201-365-00 operating shaft bush 1
950 116 715 01 clutch fork bush 2
???950 116 911 00 clutch repair kit 1 ???
964 102 239 00 flywheel 1
931 102 111 00 ball bearing 35m 1
000 043 024 00 Olista Longtime 3EP 1
930 102 20 6 00 cheese -hd screw 9
999-510-015-02 pressure plate bolts 9


If it helps, the VIN number of my car is:
WP0AB096XKS450459

I would really appreciate any help you can provide!

Thank You



Answer:
The single mass flywheel from Porsche was 13 pounds (with starter ring gear) and was steel. Where did you get the 19 pound figure from? It appears you already have the correct stock flywheel. The stock dual-mass flywheel weighed around 35 pounds.

I do not know if the dual mass flywheel can be retrofitted to the 1989 C4 model, but I think that is the real question to be asking here. If it were my street car, I would probably try that. That is what Porsche did with all the cars after 1989, C4 and C2, and I can not think of a reason offhand why you could not do that with a 1989 C4. If someone else has more information on that, I will let you know. It appears that the factory simply added the dual mass flywheel one model year later for the C2, and the C4, after getting all the rest of the new technology in place for the 1989 C4 introduction.

There were three big benefits of the dual mass flywheel:
1- less rattling noise from the transmission
2- prevented the car from stalling at stop lights
3- spring loaded takeup took some wear off the clutch

There were three key problems with the dual mass flywheel:
1- heavy rotating mass cost a little bit of power
2- reduces engine's ability to rev freely
3- early units failed

The original dual mass flywheel was made by Freudenberg (pronounced froyd-en-berg). There were quite a few that failed. All the ones that failed, and many more that hadn't yet, were replaced with the improved version made by LUK (pronounced luke). But as you probably realize, the original 1989 C4 did not use a dual mass flywheel at all.

The correct dual mass flywheel for a 964 C4 from 1990 on would be 9 64.114.011.04, however, that now supercedes to 964.114.012.02, same as a C2 would use. There are a lot of these available used, since so many racers like to do the single mass flywheel conversion. However as you may know the 964 model tends to stall a lot with the SMF.

I understand that Andial made a heavier single mass flywheel, to try to combat the stalling problem. That would probably be the best one to use. If that was what the previous owner used, I would try to replicate that setup. Your parts list would be OK with the exception of the flywheel itself, which would come from Andial under a non-factory part number.

Your clutch repair kit would be 964.116.911.02, since the original version 964.116.911.00 for models up to 1991 now supercedes directly to 964.116.911.02.

The repair kit would include a clutch disc, pressure plate, and release bearing assembly. So just make sure you don't duplicate anything.

However, as your list stands, you will be replacing your 13 pound SMF with another one, presumably identical. If your current one has stress cracks from age, miles and heat, it could make sense to simply be replacing it. But not without considering the rest of this discussion.

OK now, as to your parts list being unique to the 1989 model, no that is not at all true. That is the same parts list used in the European RS models, and therefore that is the same list we use when preparing a track car in the US or Canada. This is the same basic list used in the 993 model as well. All of the "Cup cars" use this too, 964 & 993 alike. In fact your 964.102.239.00 flywheel is used to this day in the 2005 996 Cup car.

Note that your long parts list would be to "freshen" what you have now, not to "convert" anything. You appear to be replacing the same parts with the same parts. If you were to convert to the dual mass flywheel, you would need a very different list of parts, to account for the much th icker stack of the dual mass flywheel. The release bearing has to have much shorter arms since the space has been taken up. The guide tube length is shorter, and all the bolt lengths have to be longer.




Joel Reiser - PCA WebSite - 11/23/2005


Can someone set me straight?

Thanx Aplenty

Kirk

Christer

I would send Adrian a PM....

Indycam

Hiya KirkF
If you order a single mass flywheel for a 964 , you will get the right one .
Only one kind of single mass flywheel was made by porsche for the road going 964 .

Does your 12 lb flywheel have any part numbers on it ?

That letter is funny , all that stuf about dual mass flywheels gets in the way .

I would send the part numbers from sunset to a porsche dealer and ask them what they are ,
and I would send the part numbers from the porsche dealer to sunset and ask them what they are .
Part numbers change .

Do you have a porsche pet parts cd ?

KirkF

My flywheel has no parts numbers on it, so I don't believe it is factory.

My dealings with Sunset (A porche dealer) and my local Porsche dealer have come to the impass that I am at now, Where each claims to be right.

I have the PET cd, but I can't locate the clutch repair kits in it. I watched my local porsche dealer check the kit number on a SACHS sheet he had, and he was sure it was the right one. Sunset is working from the PET cd and they think their number is correct.

sigh.
Kirk

DJF1

Joel gave you a solid advise. Call Andial and get their midweight LWF and be done with it. I have it in my 993 and its superb. No stalling and much lighter than the dual mass. The folks at Andial will sell you everything you need for the project like they did with me.

Indycam

Hiya KirkF
Well ones looking at sachs numbers and one is looking at porsche numbers . No big deal .
Who gives you the better price ?
If you would like I could call / email a local dealer and ask for a quote on the same parts for my 89 964 just to see what they come up with .

Indycam

You might like to try the parts quote from

Kenn Young (parts mgr) at Hennessey Porsche out of Atlanta
and / or
https://www.autohausaz.com/index.html

Adrian

Kirk,
I explained this in my PM replies, but here is a general overview for all.

FORGET the weight of the flywheel it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.
The information provided by the PCA is basically useless.

Clearly the author does not understand that the 89C4s uses a rubber centred clutch plate and a different bell housing.
The 964 Carrera RS parts are used on the 996 Cup cars and the 996 GT-3 etc, but this has stuff all to do with the 89C4.

A single mass flywheel and a double mass flywheel are the ONLY concerns when ordering a clutch repair kit and getting the right part number. You have a Single Mass Flywheel.

What is important is the distance the clutch plate has to travel to engage the flywheel. This is controlled by the size of the guide tube which when I last looked was not normally included in a repair kit anyway.

So some basics.
The 89C4 has a single mass flywheel and uses a rubber centred clutch plate.

The 90C4 and up use a double mass flywheel and a clutch plate with nothing in the centre and a shorter guide tube.

The Carrera RS (road version) uses a spring centred clutch plate and a special length guide tube and has nothing to do with the 89C4 in standard form.

Also remember that the 1990 models and up use a different transmission bell housing. Slightly different size. This may or may not impact the throw of the clutch acuation system. Never could get these pesky little details.

So you simply need the 1989 Carrera 4 clutch repair kit. Nothing else is acceptable.

A 1991 clutch repair kit is for the double mass flywheel equipped 964. If it can be used on a 1991 model it is no good for a 89C4.

The Carrera RS clutch repair kit is for the Carrera RS.

I do recommend you purchase the model year 1992 clutch fork which is the same for all models of 964.

Ciao,
Adrian.

KirkF

Indycam

My car being an '89 never had the dual mass flywheel. It was different from the other years.
I think it should have had a 19lb smf with part # 964 102 239 00 (sometimes referred to as the MWF)

The argument comes down to which clutch / pressure plate goes with the flywheel # 964 102 239 00
the:
950 116 911 00 clutch repair kit
or
964-116-911-02 clutch repair kit

As an additional point of interest, I noted Jason Andreas posted a picture of this flywheel but he said that his weighed in at 12lbs before he returned it. Although it bears a different number than the RS flywheel.

Indycam, if you could do that I would really appreciate it. Just ask for an '89 C4 clutch repair kit. and/or the individual parts clutch disc/pressure plate/throwout bearing (which is whats in the clutch kit)

And thanx Adrian for the help!


Kirk

p.s. NEVER EVER EVER BUY THE FIRST YEAR MODEL OF A CAR! GRR!
p.p.s. Here is the picture of what might be the correct setup from pet.

Indycam

"p.s. NEVER EVER EVER BUY THE FIRST YEAR MODEL OF A CAR! GRR!"
Hey , the 89 is the best !!!! No talk stink of da 89 bra , you like beef !!!

"if you could do that I would really appreciate it."
Will do .

JasonAndreas

Kirk,
Do your flywheel look like (MWF)


or (LWF)

If it looks like the first two pictures was the starter ring gear mounted between the flywheel and the pressure plate or was it on the outer face of the pressure plate? I can take another photo of the flywheel if needed.

KirkF

Jason,

Here are the pics of mine.

Kirk
(indy: I promise not to 'dis' the 89 as soon as its moving again.

Red rooster

Not really relevant but the starter motor for an 89 C4 is a unique part and will not work with a dual mass.As Adrian has said ,the bellhousing is an 89 part so would have to be changed to fit a 90- motor to allow a dual mass to be fitted to an 89 C4 !!!!!!!!!.
Standard 89 parts are what I used last time . I seem to remember that there is only one rubber centre clutch disk now? They did come in different strengths for the C4,Turbo,3.2 .
Seems like the PCA guy knew a bit about the 996 !!!

Good luck

Geoff

JasonAndreas

Forget about the clutch kit (the SACHS application part numbers don't match Porsches) and just order the following:

950-116-023-03 (1) pressure plate
950-116-012-52 (1) clutch disc (rubber centered carrier plate)
950-116-143-01 (1) starter ring
900-067-045-02 (9) cheese head screws M8 x 80

950-116-813-06 (1) guide tube
N-033-040-1 (2) screw M6 x 14
950-116-080-08 (1) release bearing
950-116-086-06 (1) release fork
950-116-715-01 (2) release fork bushing

950-116-710-04 (1) operating shaft
999-113-418-40 (2) operating shaft gasket
999-201-339-00 (1) operating shaft bushing
999-201-365-00 (1) operating shaft bushing
950-116-725-00 (1) operating shaft cover

000-043-024-00 (1) Olista Longtime 3EP

964-102-239-00 (1) Midweight Flywheel
931-102-111-00 (1) ball bearing (throwout)
930-102-206-00 (9) cheese head screw

999-113-426-41 (1) Rear Main Seal

I take it you never had any luck adjusting your ISV to stop your 964 from stalling with the LWF?

Indycam

Hiya KirkF
I called the local dealers around here , worthless to ask them questions , I had to tell them about clutches on 89s . Way high prices and they refuse to give out part numbers .

The local dealers here claim " no kits" all parts one at a time .

The tweeks catalog no listings for an 89 .

The vertex catalog #18 page 74
89 sachs clutch kit $719
89 sachs clutch disc $340
89 sachs pressure plate $299
89 sachs release bearing $90
89 flywheel $309
89 flywheel bolts $2.90 each
updated guide tube $55

Performance products catalog 51a from 2002
89 Pressure plate $355.95
89 disc $399.95
89 throw out bearing $157.95
89 clutch sets $776.77
89 throw out bearing tube $49.95
89 flywheel pilot bearing $10.95
89 flywheel $449.95

Local dealers , same price to the penny .
89 pressure plate $415.31
89 flywheel $434.36
89 disc $586.53
89 throw out bearing $176.13