Two Sides to Every Story...
08-17-2001, 02:07 PM
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Track Day
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Two Sides to Every Story...
Dear Rennlist Members,
Recently, member Konrad Alvarino has blanketed the entire Rennlist with a grossly skewed tale of woe that pretty much paints Windward Performance Products, Inc. (and myself) as the "anti-christ" in the Porsche performance arena.
For those of you who do not wish to read an extremely long post (which this is) let me just say here and now that there are two sides to every story, and his does not even closely approximate the truth. He did suggest that (until I hung up on him) I had been helpful and courteous, and that is true. I will not, however, subject myself to ranting, raving, and profanity from any customer. I will hang up every time, and if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy.
I am now going to present the truth.
This regrettable situation did not unfold at all as Mr. Alvarino suggests, and he has neglected some very important points, and lied about others.
First, let it be known that he threatened me with a serious Rennlist flaming if we did not bow to his completely unreasonable demands, and he obviously made good on his promise. Unfortunately, he has shown neither honor nor shame in his post regarding his deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
As many in the Porsche community may remember, there was a "drought" of H&R coil-over kits in the U.S. for awhile. During this time, Mr. Alvarino wished to obtain one for his 993 Twin Turbo. Upon checking, I was able to inform him that we had one H&R coil-over #29590-2 in stock that was missing the spherical-bearing upper camber plates and rear upper shock mounts. I offered to furnish the very nice E.R.P. units in their place for no additional charge. (Our customers will be familiar with the E.R.P. line--they are arguably some of the nicest components available, and are much more expensive than their H&R counterparts.)
He not only agreed, but thanked me, stating that this was a much better alternative than waiting the 6-8 weeks that H&R was quoting to get more of these systems in from Germany.
The system was sent to him, and what ensued was a nightmare. He did not understand how to install it, and was quite indignant and upset when he found out that the car had to be re-aligned and corner balanced after the installation of the suspension! At this time, I suggested (in the nicest, friendliest manner that I could) that he may be a bit over his head on this project and should consult a local shop for installation.
He then got mad and wanted to ship it back. I agreed, based on the assumption that it was in "as-new" condition. When I received it, it was inspected and found that it was very scratched, dented, and not saleable at all, let alone as new. (He did not even do us the courtesy of using original packaging--it was simply all thrown together in a big box with no packing materials, and arrived in horrible condition, ripped, with bushings and hardware dropping out of the mutilated packaging.)
I called him, and told him that it would not be accepted. After numerous phone calls, we agreed on a compromise--I would honor the refund in the form of a store credit to be used toward another purchase, minus the money necessary to replace the missing and damaged components. He agreed.
It should also be noted (and our customers are all aware of this) that prior to shipping any order, the customer signs off on a confirmation sheet that clearly states our return policy and re-stock fees.
Unfortunately, after agreeing to this, he did a chargeback on his credit card. We have submitted all documentation to both banks, and (after extensive exchanges) both banks ruled in our favor regarding the re-stocking fee, having clearly illustrated Mr. Alvarinos signature agreeing to these terms for this sale.
Mr. Alvarino neglected to mention that he already fought this battle and lost, and the whole situation could have been avoided completely by adhering to our agreement.
Instead, he has chosen to take the low-road.
As he said, I did my best to remain courteous to him throughout this ordeal, and I (and everyone else here) takes customer service seriously. We are NOT however, LLBean or Nordstroms, and Mr. Alvarino was not trying to return a sweater. There are some different issues at stake when it is a custom coil-over system for a $100K Porsche 993 Twin Turbo, and I did my best to keep him happy, but that does not extend to accepting a $2800.00 box of shrapnel for a refund. He did well to even recieve a partial credit, and we now have a scratched, dented, coil-over system that will probably set on our shelves for quite some time.
Sorry for all that this did not work out, but realize that anyone, at any time, can post anything they wish and (unfortunately) people will crawl out from under rocks everywhere to become party to a good, old fashioned Rennlist flaming.
I sincerely hope you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains.
If you need performance items for a Porsche, we will continue to go above and beyond to provide the best products, the best service, the lowest prices and the best technical support available in the industry.
As for you, Mr. Alvarino, I sincerely hope you find another purveyor with whom to build a constructive relationship that will enhance your enjoyment of owning that very special Porsche.
Thanks for your attention, and sorry for the length of this post.
Best Regards,
Dan
Windward Performance Products, Inc.
Recently, member Konrad Alvarino has blanketed the entire Rennlist with a grossly skewed tale of woe that pretty much paints Windward Performance Products, Inc. (and myself) as the "anti-christ" in the Porsche performance arena.
For those of you who do not wish to read an extremely long post (which this is) let me just say here and now that there are two sides to every story, and his does not even closely approximate the truth. He did suggest that (until I hung up on him) I had been helpful and courteous, and that is true. I will not, however, subject myself to ranting, raving, and profanity from any customer. I will hang up every time, and if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy.
I am now going to present the truth.
This regrettable situation did not unfold at all as Mr. Alvarino suggests, and he has neglected some very important points, and lied about others.
First, let it be known that he threatened me with a serious Rennlist flaming if we did not bow to his completely unreasonable demands, and he obviously made good on his promise. Unfortunately, he has shown neither honor nor shame in his post regarding his deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
As many in the Porsche community may remember, there was a "drought" of H&R coil-over kits in the U.S. for awhile. During this time, Mr. Alvarino wished to obtain one for his 993 Twin Turbo. Upon checking, I was able to inform him that we had one H&R coil-over #29590-2 in stock that was missing the spherical-bearing upper camber plates and rear upper shock mounts. I offered to furnish the very nice E.R.P. units in their place for no additional charge. (Our customers will be familiar with the E.R.P. line--they are arguably some of the nicest components available, and are much more expensive than their H&R counterparts.)
He not only agreed, but thanked me, stating that this was a much better alternative than waiting the 6-8 weeks that H&R was quoting to get more of these systems in from Germany.
The system was sent to him, and what ensued was a nightmare. He did not understand how to install it, and was quite indignant and upset when he found out that the car had to be re-aligned and corner balanced after the installation of the suspension! At this time, I suggested (in the nicest, friendliest manner that I could) that he may be a bit over his head on this project and should consult a local shop for installation.
He then got mad and wanted to ship it back. I agreed, based on the assumption that it was in "as-new" condition. When I received it, it was inspected and found that it was very scratched, dented, and not saleable at all, let alone as new. (He did not even do us the courtesy of using original packaging--it was simply all thrown together in a big box with no packing materials, and arrived in horrible condition, ripped, with bushings and hardware dropping out of the mutilated packaging.)
I called him, and told him that it would not be accepted. After numerous phone calls, we agreed on a compromise--I would honor the refund in the form of a store credit to be used toward another purchase, minus the money necessary to replace the missing and damaged components. He agreed.
It should also be noted (and our customers are all aware of this) that prior to shipping any order, the customer signs off on a confirmation sheet that clearly states our return policy and re-stock fees.
Unfortunately, after agreeing to this, he did a chargeback on his credit card. We have submitted all documentation to both banks, and (after extensive exchanges) both banks ruled in our favor regarding the re-stocking fee, having clearly illustrated Mr. Alvarinos signature agreeing to these terms for this sale.
Mr. Alvarino neglected to mention that he already fought this battle and lost, and the whole situation could have been avoided completely by adhering to our agreement.
Instead, he has chosen to take the low-road.
As he said, I did my best to remain courteous to him throughout this ordeal, and I (and everyone else here) takes customer service seriously. We are NOT however, LLBean or Nordstroms, and Mr. Alvarino was not trying to return a sweater. There are some different issues at stake when it is a custom coil-over system for a $100K Porsche 993 Twin Turbo, and I did my best to keep him happy, but that does not extend to accepting a $2800.00 box of shrapnel for a refund. He did well to even recieve a partial credit, and we now have a scratched, dented, coil-over system that will probably set on our shelves for quite some time.
Sorry for all that this did not work out, but realize that anyone, at any time, can post anything they wish and (unfortunately) people will crawl out from under rocks everywhere to become party to a good, old fashioned Rennlist flaming.
I sincerely hope you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains.
If you need performance items for a Porsche, we will continue to go above and beyond to provide the best products, the best service, the lowest prices and the best technical support available in the industry.
As for you, Mr. Alvarino, I sincerely hope you find another purveyor with whom to build a constructive relationship that will enhance your enjoyment of owning that very special Porsche.
Thanks for your attention, and sorry for the length of this post.
Best Regards,
Dan
Windward Performance Products, Inc.
08-17-2001, 05:07 PM
#2
Racer
I'll buy that, when i first read that thread, I thought there was more too it, incidents like this one should be taken care of between the 2 parties, since Mr.993 tt opened a can of worms here its only fair that Windward close it.
$.02 worth
$.02 worth
08-17-2001, 09:37 PM
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08-19-2001, 02:10 PM
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Wow! I came back from a nice weekend out of town , and read this post. I would like to clarify a few points in Dan's email which are different from the truth:
1. I never used yelled or used profanity in my conversation with Dan. It is not my style.
2. The "offer" to send non-H&R parts was never made. The parts arrived at my house and I called Dan to clarify what I received. It was only then I found out I had differnt parts.
3. I am not a certified mechanic, but there are people on this list who can vouch for my technical abilities. I feel that I am quite capable of installing a suspension system on my own. I do work on my car because it is fun, and it is relaxing to me, not because I have to. The bit about not know the car would need an alignment? Please....
4. The parts were shipped back in original containers in the condition I received them in. The mounts shipped to me were not new, and even had evidence of rust. Can't do that in a few days. Interesting that Dan mentions that he called and told me the return was unacceptable, as this was never discussed in the multiple times I called them. I have e-mails traded with Dan making reference to the received shipment and that the $2800 credit "must have gone through, and I will fax you the credit voucher". None of this was ever done. I guess these emails were not part of the documentation they submitted to the banks....
5. There was no phone call in which store credit was discussed. I was holding off on any purchase until a full credit was received into my account, as any reasonable person would. Again, I have emails where I am asking for credit back n my AMEX dating to mid May.
6. A partial credit has been received in my account, but I am still owed the re-stocking fee. This is the first time I have asked AMEX for this, as I have NEVER had problems with suppliers. No finality to this issue at this time.
7. As for the personal insults (no Honor, shame, lies, crawl under the rocks, etc.) They will remain unanswered by me.
Guys, the purpose of my original post was to share with the list my bad experience with a parts dealer. I have nothing personal to gain from this (exept maybe to get my money back). With several choices for suppliers of parts, why should anybody risk the potential trouble associated with doing business with questionable suppliers? I for one wish I had read about Jim's experience before my purchase. I will continue to share notable experiences with the list, and I hope other people will too.
1. I never used yelled or used profanity in my conversation with Dan. It is not my style.
2. The "offer" to send non-H&R parts was never made. The parts arrived at my house and I called Dan to clarify what I received. It was only then I found out I had differnt parts.
3. I am not a certified mechanic, but there are people on this list who can vouch for my technical abilities. I feel that I am quite capable of installing a suspension system on my own. I do work on my car because it is fun, and it is relaxing to me, not because I have to. The bit about not know the car would need an alignment? Please....
4. The parts were shipped back in original containers in the condition I received them in. The mounts shipped to me were not new, and even had evidence of rust. Can't do that in a few days. Interesting that Dan mentions that he called and told me the return was unacceptable, as this was never discussed in the multiple times I called them. I have e-mails traded with Dan making reference to the received shipment and that the $2800 credit "must have gone through, and I will fax you the credit voucher". None of this was ever done. I guess these emails were not part of the documentation they submitted to the banks....
5. There was no phone call in which store credit was discussed. I was holding off on any purchase until a full credit was received into my account, as any reasonable person would. Again, I have emails where I am asking for credit back n my AMEX dating to mid May.
6. A partial credit has been received in my account, but I am still owed the re-stocking fee. This is the first time I have asked AMEX for this, as I have NEVER had problems with suppliers. No finality to this issue at this time.
7. As for the personal insults (no Honor, shame, lies, crawl under the rocks, etc.) They will remain unanswered by me.
Guys, the purpose of my original post was to share with the list my bad experience with a parts dealer. I have nothing personal to gain from this (exept maybe to get my money back). With several choices for suppliers of parts, why should anybody risk the potential trouble associated with doing business with questionable suppliers? I for one wish I had read about Jim's experience before my purchase. I will continue to share notable experiences with the list, and I hope other people will too.
08-21-2001, 04:47 PM
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it seems to me that people have complained about these guys before, i remember something similar on the old format board...the 911 board has completely different views about this instance...
personally i don't give a frog's fat butt who is right or wrong , however, i do feel that customer service has gone down the drain...given the cost of aftermarket parts for our beloved cars, most places give horrible service...i know people who hate paying 3 grand for their kids braces but have ordered their second set of track kinesis k-20's like it was domino's pizza night...
when we buy our parts we should be entitled to quality service....and like everyone in retail knows, the customer is always right
after too many bad posts a small mail order company will suffer and more people will switch to places like Pelican or EBS
hasn't Windward learned anything about the cost of getting an old customer back or were they sleeping during economics class??
personally i don't give a frog's fat butt who is right or wrong , however, i do feel that customer service has gone down the drain...given the cost of aftermarket parts for our beloved cars, most places give horrible service...i know people who hate paying 3 grand for their kids braces but have ordered their second set of track kinesis k-20's like it was domino's pizza night...
when we buy our parts we should be entitled to quality service....and like everyone in retail knows, the customer is always right
after too many bad posts a small mail order company will suffer and more people will switch to places like Pelican or EBS
hasn't Windward learned anything about the cost of getting an old customer back or were they sleeping during economics class??
08-23-2001, 04:54 PM
#7
Race Car
GREAT point Tyler. I too had a problem a few months back w/Windward. I had ordered a BK Harness Guide Bar and had it shipped overnight as I was leaving the next day for a track event. Understand I had a local shop try to obtain one through their channels to no avail and found out at the last minute.
Okay, so I was charged $42.95 for overnight UPS to my house...no problem. The bar arrived and I went to install it, something was amiss w/the adjustable end, either it was made improperly, was for a 944 or was damaged!
I quickly hopped on the phone to Dan and he agreed to send another one out overnight to the hotel where I was staying during the DE event.
Again, my Visa was charged for a BK Harness Guide Bar and $42.95 shipping. This, I didn't mind.
What I did mind is what follows...after Dan said they would immediately send a call tag through UPS upon my return home, it took a week and a half, because he was on vacation the following week. I followed the tracking# until it arrived at Windward. They denied having received the returned bar for almost a week!
Okay, now I'm getting irritated. Finally Dan says they received it and were "hashing it out" w/Brey Kraus. It took over a month to get my Visa credited w/the original charge for the first bar...MINUS the $42.95 shipping fee.
Okay, so now we took OVER a month to credit my account for the original purchase, so I'm a little ticked off by this point...now they don't refund the shipping? Now I'm pissed!
To this day, Windward refuses to return the original shipping costs.
Now they claim that I should have put a claim through UPS because the bar was apparently damaged?? This comes up only after I try to get my shipping costs returned.
Mind you, I don't mind paying for overnight shipping, but only once! I don't feel I should have to eat the shipping on a damaged/incorrect item!
Now, to give credit where credit is due...Dan has offered to "hook me up on my next order" - Question: with this kind of service, do I really want to take another chance on Windward?? Chances are I will, they are a great company and seem to always have what I need, advice isn't too shabby either.
As mentioned before, bottom line, "THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT" - I shouldn't have to eat a damned thing in this scenario.
BTW, I LOVE my correct/undamaged BK Harness Guide Bar...it's too bad that everytime I look at it I get a bad taste in my mouth!
Big warehouse distributors need to quit using lingo like, "that's the industry standard" when trying to resolve an issue...this WAS NOT the industry standard as I have purchased in upwards of $20,000 worth of parts over the last 5 years and have NEVER had to deal with something like this. Their credit card policy of having to fax you an invoice for you to sign and you fax it back is a pain in the butt as well, again, the same response, "that's the industry standard".
Get a grip, that is not the industry standard...Windward, you are the only Porsche parts warehouse I have EVER dealt with that does this!
Dan, I appreciate you posting to this forum in an attempt to clarify some issues w/Mr. Alvarino, but be aware that you now open yourself up to additional criticism.
Hopefully this response is found in good taste and some applicable alternatives can be sought out for customer service in the future...in other words, maybe we ALL can learn something from this?
Keep the rubber side down.
Okay, so I was charged $42.95 for overnight UPS to my house...no problem. The bar arrived and I went to install it, something was amiss w/the adjustable end, either it was made improperly, was for a 944 or was damaged!
I quickly hopped on the phone to Dan and he agreed to send another one out overnight to the hotel where I was staying during the DE event.
Again, my Visa was charged for a BK Harness Guide Bar and $42.95 shipping. This, I didn't mind.
What I did mind is what follows...after Dan said they would immediately send a call tag through UPS upon my return home, it took a week and a half, because he was on vacation the following week. I followed the tracking# until it arrived at Windward. They denied having received the returned bar for almost a week!
Okay, now I'm getting irritated. Finally Dan says they received it and were "hashing it out" w/Brey Kraus. It took over a month to get my Visa credited w/the original charge for the first bar...MINUS the $42.95 shipping fee.
Okay, so now we took OVER a month to credit my account for the original purchase, so I'm a little ticked off by this point...now they don't refund the shipping? Now I'm pissed!
To this day, Windward refuses to return the original shipping costs.
Now they claim that I should have put a claim through UPS because the bar was apparently damaged?? This comes up only after I try to get my shipping costs returned.
Mind you, I don't mind paying for overnight shipping, but only once! I don't feel I should have to eat the shipping on a damaged/incorrect item!
Now, to give credit where credit is due...Dan has offered to "hook me up on my next order" - Question: with this kind of service, do I really want to take another chance on Windward?? Chances are I will, they are a great company and seem to always have what I need, advice isn't too shabby either.
As mentioned before, bottom line, "THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT" - I shouldn't have to eat a damned thing in this scenario.
BTW, I LOVE my correct/undamaged BK Harness Guide Bar...it's too bad that everytime I look at it I get a bad taste in my mouth!
Big warehouse distributors need to quit using lingo like, "that's the industry standard" when trying to resolve an issue...this WAS NOT the industry standard as I have purchased in upwards of $20,000 worth of parts over the last 5 years and have NEVER had to deal with something like this. Their credit card policy of having to fax you an invoice for you to sign and you fax it back is a pain in the butt as well, again, the same response, "that's the industry standard".
Get a grip, that is not the industry standard...Windward, you are the only Porsche parts warehouse I have EVER dealt with that does this!
Dan, I appreciate you posting to this forum in an attempt to clarify some issues w/Mr. Alvarino, but be aware that you now open yourself up to additional criticism.
Hopefully this response is found in good taste and some applicable alternatives can be sought out for customer service in the future...in other words, maybe we ALL can learn something from this?
Keep the rubber side down.
