swellC2

I would like to lower my '90 C2 primarily for appearance reasons. The gap between the tire and wheel well in the front is significantly higher than in the rear. I drive the car about 60 miles a day so I don't want to stiffen the ride anymore than I need to. Can I get away with just changing the springs or do I need to replace the shocks also? The car has 90k miles. Finally, any preference between the Eibach and H&R springs? It sounds like the Eibachs lower the car a little less and may provide a softer ride?

Thanks,
David

MelissaM

David,

I faced the same dilemma as you did a little over 3 years ago. Like you, I didn't like the look of the front fender gap.

I ended up putting H&R springs on my car. I am absolutely thrilled with the result -- no fender gap, and the lower center of gravity makes the car handle that much better! The H&R springs are progressive, so the ride around town is fine -- perhaps a little better than stock.

I didn't replace the stock shocks; if they're not matched to the springs, I'm not discerning enough to tell the difference. OTOH, at 90,000 miles, it might be time to replace your shocks, so you might as well get the ones that will go with the springs.

Eibach vs. H&R -- I really didn't have a preference either way. The way I ended up with the H&R's is that Windward had the Porsche Factory Euro springs, which is what I thought I wanted. However, after they checked, they discovered that they didn't have the factory Euro's for the early 964. So....I ended up with the H&R's, and I've been very pleased.

I think the Tire Rack did a comparison of Eibach vs H&R on a BMW 3-series; and I think the Eibachs won out. (But then again, my memory isn't what it once was.)

Here's a pic of my car lowered, so you can get an idea of how low it got. Incidentally, I was still able to fit 17" wheels on my car after lowering it, with no rubbing problems. Of course, this may vary with the individual car.

Good luck -- I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results no matter which route you end up going.

-- Melissa

Bill Gregory

Another solution is to use Dopke lowering perches, which can be seen here: http://www.dopkedesign.com/suspension.html These allow you to keep your same springs and shocks and just lower the bottoms that the springs ride on by 1 1/4". I haven't personally used them, however, it may be an option for you. You might want to call Clay Dopke and talk to him. Looks like they are on special for $50 off.

Marc '91 C2 Coupe

Howdy gang,

While we're on this topic, perhaps one of you would care to comment on my situation:

I just bought the car 2 months ago, and drove it exactly twice before winter hibernation.

The service history shows the car was lowered when it was brand new, through the installation of 2 spacers (964-343-502-00-spacer). It does not appear, from the paperwork, as though any other parts were changed/added.

Can anyone please tell me how these spacers work and where they are installed?

I personally feel that the ride is quite harsh, although it probably has something to do with Quebec's roads being worse than those anywhere on the planet (except, perhaps, Afghanistan)...

Still and all, the undertaker will have a serious problem getting this sh*t-eating grin off my face...

Marc

Marc '91 C2 Coupe

Further to my last message, I'm going to try and post an early pic of my car...
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/911side.jpg

Sorry for the poor quality, it's the first pic I could get, taken just after the car got off the train here in Montreal.

Hope this works...

Jeff Curtis

David, Melissa hit the nail on the head with either Eibach or H&R, you can use your original shocks if they're still in good shape...but while you have all that apart to install the springs, lowering perches, whatever you decide on...make sure everything is okay.

The major benefit to upgrading your shocks is adjustability, with the original Boges, you have very little adjustment, with Bilstein, you have maybe 30mm, not sure, but 3-4 times the amount when compared to the original Boges.

Melissa touched on an important factor when deciding between Eibach and H&R though...H&R are PROGRESSIVE springs, meaning the ride will be a little more plush under normal conditions, but will tense up considerably, and progressively under load. So considering your desires to keep a nicer ride, I would tend to go with the H&R springs...I did, but installed the springs for a 965 Turbo so it would be stiffer.

Bill G. had a great suggestion, but you'll likely have to search the classifieds for a used set as the last word I got was that Clay stopped making the lowering perches and sold the remaining inventory...I may be wrong, if so, my apologies Clay!

The more common choice is the use of lowering springs...it's up to you!

As for Marc's question...I have no idea how a spacer could lower a 964? I looked at the pic of your car, BTW nice car...it does appear to be lowered, next time you have one of the front wheels off, take a pic of the strut/spring assembly and send it to my email address -or- maybe Adrian can help identify that part by it's #?

Bill Gregory

Marc,

Part number 964.343.502.00 (adjustment nut) is the standard 964 lower rear spring perch that is on the lower shock body to hold the bottom of the springs. Maybe when they lowered the perches the original nuts were shot.

Adrian

Dear David,
People keep talking about EIBACH or H&R Springs but not about what type of EIBACH or H&R springs.
I have a set of EIBACH springs on my C4. They will rattle your teeth. They make the H&Rs look like rubber bands (have a set of them as well, H&Rs that is). I did not like them. Too soft for my tastes. I also do not like progressive springs. Just a personal set up thing.
When you are looking at springs you have to know what kind of springs you actually want. What do you actually want these springs to do for you. They will not just lower. Going submariner means things change.
There are different kinds of springs from both manufacturers. Also check out K&W. Some springs just lower. Others that are stiffer and lower, others that do no lower but make the ride stiffer and others that lower and rattle your teeth. Some are progressive front and rear. Others are progressive rear only, others are not progressive.
This is very important because I know many who have purchased a set of H&R lowering springs and then need to visit the dentist. They ended up with the Race Spec springs and not the lowering only set.
I highly recommend prospective purchasers checkout the various online catalogues from these companies. Get a description of the spring sets and then ask about specific sets.
Tom Sharpes used the lowering perch method on his C2 Targa. He might be worth asking about this process.
For the record I do not recommend just using lowering springs. I do recommend with lowering springs to use a stiffer shock and front strut. Many do not and this is personal choice but they do tend to bottom out on rougher roads. Load distribution is also incorrect but that is another subject. Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: Of course you could try lowering with the adjusts you have. This might meet your requirements. For most people it does not but many adding a set of 17 inch wheels and lowering with what you have, may be enough.

Riccardo

Adrian,

Why is it you do not recommend lowering by using springs only?

On one side I am tempted by this route because it is somewhat cheaper (from one half to one third of total cost with shocks) and then in a year or so to upgrade the shocks as well. On the other side I have this feeling at the back of my mind which tells me that the standard shocks have not been designed to work with smaller springs. A Porsche is, after all, fine engineering, no?

What do you mean about the load distribuition being messed up if one was to use springs only?

Also, how long, on average, could one expect the original shocks to last for?

Thanks for any feedback.

SuperCarrera

Melissa had mentioned the Factory Euro springs (which were also recommended to me; along with the H & R Springs -- two different Porsche performance shops).

Do you know if the factory Euro springs are a "standard" or are there variations among these springs, as well?

Also, do you know how the Factory Euro springs compare to the H & R in relation to how far they lower (or allow to be lowered) the front and rear of the car? I, too, do not like the large space over the front wheels of my 964 (I met a couple of guys with 993's last Sunday and the space thing looked really obvious next to their car's set-ups)

Jeff Curtis

Adrian, SwellC2 sounds like he just want to lower the car, in either case, if using factory M030 lowering springs or the basic Eibach -or- H&R STAGE I package, he will be fine with factory shocks.

SwellC2 did not indicate he wanted a performance increase, but if he changes to lowering springs, he'll get one! When referring to the stiffer Eibach and H&R springs, we go into Stage II setups, etc.

The basic springs on the market, here in the US are around $300 a set, lower the car 1.3-1.7 inches and are readily available.

I know a handful of people that have just changed to lowering/slight performance springs from either manufacturer and all report a decent performance increase with little harshness.

Now I, looking for an increase somewhere between slight and harsh, used H&R lowering/sport springs for a 965 Turbo. They provide about 35-45 lbs more stiffness on each corner of the vehicle...making it a fairly stiff ride - and perfect at the track, at least for me anyway.

I honestly think one in the US would find it difficult to make the mistake of ordering/installing Race/Stage II and above type springs...most of them require a dedicated strut assembly made by Eibach/H&R anyway.

The "Race Spec" springs you mentioned (Adrian) are FAR above what is normally offered to the average P-Car owner that just wants a slightly stiffer ride and/or lowering. My suggestion to get Bilsteins was based on my experience with adjustability.

If one wanted to purchase "Race Spec" type springs, they'll be in for over 3k, usually, because Stage II and above, for H&R let's say...requires the use of their shock and an adjustable camber plate...over 3k indeed.

So, to get back to the BASIC question that SwellC2 asked...a set of lowering/sport springs from Eibach/H&R/K&W...whatever -or- a set of Dopke lowering perches would do him just fine.

When I give advice such as I have...I do it from experience, I do all of my own work whether it involves rebuilding an engine/trans, suspension, cosmetic, just not paint/body work! I own a daily driver/track car...it's VERY driveable on the street...and a beast on the track - references available upon request.

SwellC2 sounds as if he just wants to lower the car...Tom Sharpes used factory M030 springs with his Dopke perches, he was also an autocrosser. If Tom would have just used a set of lowering/sport springs from one of the manufacturers mentioned, he would've wound up with the same setup...M030 springs do NOT lower the car, reference a factory RS America.

I believe GeoC2Cab, also uses lowering springs (Eibach-or-H&R?) and factory Boge shocks, no negative issues reported out of him either.

In summary, if one just wants to lower their C2/C4...the Dopke perches alone will do just fine, but the factory springs won't be enough to prevent the car from bottoming out in most scenarios. If one were to use sport/lowering springs, they would be taking care of most issues, a lower and slightly stiffer ride to prevent underbody collisions in most situations.

I could go on, I apologize for the novel I wrote, I am certainly not the final word on suspension upgrades - but felt the need to expand on my original post...as you have to be more specific around somepeople or you'll "hear it".

c4cab0

Adrian suggested using your your Porsche
stock spring/shock setup,how do you make the
adjustment? How do you lower with this setup? My C4 has 17" wheels and the gap is
about 4" between body and wheel up front. I
like the ride but would like to have more
agressive handling in corners.
I have been researching H&R springs & H&R
sport springs stage 2. I want to use this setup and 18" Porsche technology.

Jeff Curtis

C4Cab, not much adjustment from the factory shock standpoint...you have about 10mm on the front, that's it...if memory serves me, and it often doesn't, there is no adjustment on the rear...I MAY be wrong, if I am, I'm sure someone will come on here to correct.

964 owners that really want to get rid of the "gap" have some work to do, and some $$$ to pay - or the job won't be complete. I would venture to say that the 10mm you can get out of the factory setup falls FAR short of most 964 owner's expectations.

SuperCarrera

Jeff,

Basic question -- are the factory M030 lowering springs you refer to the same as the factory Euro springs Melissa mentioned?

Thanks...

Jeff Curtis

I'm not sure Tim, I believe there is a set of factory Euro M030 springs that would lower a car to "Euro spec" and be sport springs to boot...but that's just what I gather from hanging around here.

P-Car fans tend to throw around the term "Euro" quite frequently and not necessarily pertaining to genuine "Euro" parts/vehicles. Kind of like how I throw around "Cup"...I built my car to "Carrera Cup" standards, for the most part, it is GP White, so I tend to live in the fisaud that I own a "Cup" car.

My Doctor says "it's okay to live in a fisaud...after all, there's medication for that!" Actually, I made that up myself.

I'm not much for factory "sport" options like M030, mainly due to the fact that I've driven cars with factory "sport" optioned suspensions, they're great...but I want more, mainly to compensate for my LOUSY driving!

I do however believe, that if I could just scrape up enough money for one of those new GT-2s...the FACTORY setup on that would suffice.