The good, the bad and the ugly
06-03-2003, 11:25 AM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Here are some numbers I worked up based on the different gearing. To me, the big difference is the shorter first gear in the 993. That may give them an advantage in certain layouts. 
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/993v964gearing.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/993v964gearing.jpg" alt=" - " />
06-04-2003, 04:44 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Damn - I'm away one day and you try to baffle me with numbers.
The event was between second and third gear - first is not really relevant once you're off the line.
I'll have to study these charts and see can I deduce something useful or should I just go directly to a 996.
Thanks for the inputs,
The event was between second and third gear - first is not really relevant once you're off the line.
I'll have to study these charts and see can I deduce something useful or should I just go directly to a 996.
Thanks for the inputs,
06-05-2003, 10:13 AM
#20
Track Day
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by johnfm:
<strong>Irish
aren't there oil starvation issues with 996's on the track??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not on the GT3..
<strong>Irish
aren't there oil starvation issues with 996's on the track??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not on the GT3..
06-06-2003, 03:40 AM
#23
Race Car
CLEARLY, it is the HP and the final drive ratio being divided by SIX, vice five that provides a STELLAR advantage in acceleration.
993s can be quick cars if they have the right suspension mods, etc. Shorter courses/tracks seems to even out the competition a bit more as I have NEVER seen a 993 do that well at an autocross...although I must admit that most 993s I do see at local autocrosses are NOT modified, nor do they have competition type tires.
The ones that are setup/modified do well...if the driver is up to the task. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
...and yes, the driver does have something to do with it, for those of you who have blown the doors off a nicely prepped turbo at the track - you know what I'm talking about.
TERRY, I am SHOCKED that one would believe that it is ALL on the event organizer/Chairman that these guys smacked the wall??
As an Event Chairman and Chief Instructor who has setup several events at race tracks, airport runways, etc., there are always factors that play against you.
I challenge you to find a course setup similar to the one that IrishDriver describes without having barriers/ditches/lightfixtures/poles/fences or some other object that one could hit if loss of control was in effect.
ALL tracks have barriers/walls and berms, this is to protect both driver and spectator...although most drivers who HIT them don't see it that way.
It only takes a SPLIT SECOND for someone to spin a car and most of the time you are just along for the ride...so being able to "recover" from a spin, using what you allude to as "spinning and NOT hitting anything" is not always possible.
What Irish Driver is describing here is a high speed autocross in my book, we hold one every year at a remote airport in a small town called Crewe. Every few years there is an interesting incident that usually involves a Porsche in a ditch...as there is a ditch on both sides of the runway, all the way down.
So far, no damage, except for bruised egos...last year I was the "victim" and came out without a scratch to car or my body, again, the ego was a bit bruised as I was the Event Chairman and had been driving this course for YEARS.
All you can do as Event Chairman, Chief Instructor, etc. is warn drivers of some of the hazards that are out there. You CANNOT control how someone drives whatsoever...but you can send them home if they are not demonstrating smart/coherent driving techniques.
SO...to go off about an event at Hockenheim having two instances of bent sheet metal is a bit out of line - these things happen at events when we're talking about HIGH Performance cars and FAST venues!!
Now, that's not to say that damage to TWO cars is acceptable, it's just a shame...and I hope that the Event Chairman, whatever may learn from this and possibly there's a way he couldn've had the course setup to better accomodate a spin??
This was NO autocross in a wide-open parking lot or airport taxi zone. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
On another note, this does not necessarly "dub" the drivers of the damaged vehicles "idiots/crappy drivers", etc. as WE don't know what was going on. If one of them was fairly new to the track scene and he was overstepping the boundaries that should be provided by common sense...well, idiot does come to mind...but if he was an accomplished driver who is used to being at or near the limit, well...there apparently was a bad judgement call or one of his competitors overinflated his tires while he wasn't looking.
I have never been to a regular autocross where there was damage to sheet metal...although I have seen/heard the occasional "money shift" or a car overheating, etc. What IrishDriver describes is a full out, ***** to the wall course that involves 3rd gear on a portion of a racetrack that has WALLS. Again, given the scenario, however you look at it, these things are going to happen.
I'm sure this particular event has gone off in past years without a hitch, no damage...that wasn't the case this year.
Every year there is a Hillclimb held in Idaho I believe?? ...also the famous Pikes Peak...what do you think happens when one of those participants spin out of control? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
It happens.
MOST track events that I run come out with a ZERO damage record...some do not, that is NOT ON ME!! <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
For the record, I refer to the driver in all my scenarios/comments as "HE"...this was not intentional nor am I suggesting all High Performance drivers are male...I have been passed by a female before! <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" />
Sorry for the rant, it's late, I've been working 10-12hr days and it's getting on my nerves, then I read that the "Event Organizer should've done this, he didn't do that...he needs to pull his head out of his A__"
...and it touched a nerve. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />
Nothing personal, I understand your views, and I'm TRYING not to take offense. Although I'm guessing you have never been in the position of being responsible for high-speed events...I have, and these things happen.
993s can be quick cars if they have the right suspension mods, etc. Shorter courses/tracks seems to even out the competition a bit more as I have NEVER seen a 993 do that well at an autocross...although I must admit that most 993s I do see at local autocrosses are NOT modified, nor do they have competition type tires.
The ones that are setup/modified do well...if the driver is up to the task. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
...and yes, the driver does have something to do with it, for those of you who have blown the doors off a nicely prepped turbo at the track - you know what I'm talking about.
TERRY, I am SHOCKED that one would believe that it is ALL on the event organizer/Chairman that these guys smacked the wall??
As an Event Chairman and Chief Instructor who has setup several events at race tracks, airport runways, etc., there are always factors that play against you.
I challenge you to find a course setup similar to the one that IrishDriver describes without having barriers/ditches/lightfixtures/poles/fences or some other object that one could hit if loss of control was in effect.
ALL tracks have barriers/walls and berms, this is to protect both driver and spectator...although most drivers who HIT them don't see it that way.
It only takes a SPLIT SECOND for someone to spin a car and most of the time you are just along for the ride...so being able to "recover" from a spin, using what you allude to as "spinning and NOT hitting anything" is not always possible.
What Irish Driver is describing here is a high speed autocross in my book, we hold one every year at a remote airport in a small town called Crewe. Every few years there is an interesting incident that usually involves a Porsche in a ditch...as there is a ditch on both sides of the runway, all the way down.
So far, no damage, except for bruised egos...last year I was the "victim" and came out without a scratch to car or my body, again, the ego was a bit bruised as I was the Event Chairman and had been driving this course for YEARS.
All you can do as Event Chairman, Chief Instructor, etc. is warn drivers of some of the hazards that are out there. You CANNOT control how someone drives whatsoever...but you can send them home if they are not demonstrating smart/coherent driving techniques.
SO...to go off about an event at Hockenheim having two instances of bent sheet metal is a bit out of line - these things happen at events when we're talking about HIGH Performance cars and FAST venues!!
Now, that's not to say that damage to TWO cars is acceptable, it's just a shame...and I hope that the Event Chairman, whatever may learn from this and possibly there's a way he couldn've had the course setup to better accomodate a spin??
This was NO autocross in a wide-open parking lot or airport taxi zone. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
On another note, this does not necessarly "dub" the drivers of the damaged vehicles "idiots/crappy drivers", etc. as WE don't know what was going on. If one of them was fairly new to the track scene and he was overstepping the boundaries that should be provided by common sense...well, idiot does come to mind...but if he was an accomplished driver who is used to being at or near the limit, well...there apparently was a bad judgement call or one of his competitors overinflated his tires while he wasn't looking.
I have never been to a regular autocross where there was damage to sheet metal...although I have seen/heard the occasional "money shift" or a car overheating, etc. What IrishDriver describes is a full out, ***** to the wall course that involves 3rd gear on a portion of a racetrack that has WALLS. Again, given the scenario, however you look at it, these things are going to happen.
I'm sure this particular event has gone off in past years without a hitch, no damage...that wasn't the case this year.
Every year there is a Hillclimb held in Idaho I believe?? ...also the famous Pikes Peak...what do you think happens when one of those participants spin out of control? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
It happens.
MOST track events that I run come out with a ZERO damage record...some do not, that is NOT ON ME!! <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
For the record, I refer to the driver in all my scenarios/comments as "HE"...this was not intentional nor am I suggesting all High Performance drivers are male...I have been passed by a female before! <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" />
Sorry for the rant, it's late, I've been working 10-12hr days and it's getting on my nerves, then I read that the "Event Organizer should've done this, he didn't do that...he needs to pull his head out of his A__"
...and it touched a nerve. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />
Nothing personal, I understand your views, and I'm TRYING not to take offense. Although I'm guessing you have never been in the position of being responsible for high-speed events...I have, and these things happen.
06-06-2003, 08:40 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Jeff,
you've picked up my point correctly. If you use a track section, a cone in the middle is 3 to 5 meters from the barrier on one side or the other. If someone overcooks it here, things could happen. The guys with the numbers can calculate how long it takes to cover 5 meters at
100km/hr (62mph).
Logically nobody will spin there - but logic was away this day. The most damage occurred on the familarisation run when the drivers shouldn't have been trying so hard. Need we say more. All I really wanted to do was whinge about a track that obviously suited the 993's.
Anyway, in the morning it's a runway - no walls - no barriers - no mercy. I'll let you know if I can haul these damn 993s back.
you've picked up my point correctly. If you use a track section, a cone in the middle is 3 to 5 meters from the barrier on one side or the other. If someone overcooks it here, things could happen. The guys with the numbers can calculate how long it takes to cover 5 meters at
100km/hr (62mph).
Logically nobody will spin there - but logic was away this day. The most damage occurred on the familarisation run when the drivers shouldn't have been trying so hard. Need we say more. All I really wanted to do was whinge about a track that obviously suited the 993's.
Anyway, in the morning it's a runway - no walls - no barriers - no mercy. I'll let you know if I can haul these damn 993s back.
