Should I Make the Leap? (Long)
11-28-2001, 12:08 AM
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Should I Make the Leap? (Long)
I am a newbie poster and, hopefully soon, a newbie Porsche owner. After passively researching cars for the better part of this year, I drove a 964 on Saturday. Now I can think of nothing else! Please share any thoughts on the following purchase.
I found a 1990 964 C4 cab at Exotic Autowerks in Seattle. Black/black and 24,000 miles. Price is $38,900. The car is a one-owner and local. Let's assume all the service receipts and PPI check out fine. (I have gratefully noted many postings on the typical problems and fixes.)
I know one school of thought is to buy as much car as one can afford. The bank apparently thinks I can afford a decent 993 and, before Saturday, I favored a 993. However, the 964 is also very attractive and I know I would enjoy it. Also, if I continue to pine after a 993, I can likely trade up in a few years without a huge penalty.
Should I make the leap? Is the price fair (hard to tell after checking a handful of Internet price guides)? Any information about Exotic Autowerks? Anything else? Thanks so much!
Kurt
I found a 1990 964 C4 cab at Exotic Autowerks in Seattle. Black/black and 24,000 miles. Price is $38,900. The car is a one-owner and local. Let's assume all the service receipts and PPI check out fine. (I have gratefully noted many postings on the typical problems and fixes.)
I know one school of thought is to buy as much car as one can afford. The bank apparently thinks I can afford a decent 993 and, before Saturday, I favored a 993. However, the 964 is also very attractive and I know I would enjoy it. Also, if I continue to pine after a 993, I can likely trade up in a few years without a huge penalty.
Should I make the leap? Is the price fair (hard to tell after checking a handful of Internet price guides)? Any information about Exotic Autowerks? Anything else? Thanks so much!
Kurt
11-28-2001, 12:25 AM
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Assuming the car needs nothing and has all records, the price seems a little steep. It is a complete buyers market right now. People are unloading their toys left and right. I would check a few classified sites to get a feel for the prices on comparable cars. Try autotrader.com for prices in different U.S. markets. You should be able to find a comparable car in the low 30's at the highest. Take your time and drive/look at as many cars as possible. If nothing else, you will have some leverage for negotiating.
Good luck and try to enjoy the process of looking.
Good luck and try to enjoy the process of looking.
11-28-2001, 02:43 AM
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Kurt,
If everything checks out, this is a great car. The price is high, even factoring in the low mileage of the car you are looking at.
Based on Excellence Market report, a '90 C2 Cab priced: low $25133, Excellent $32950. Keep in mind that this is the 2000 data. The market is a little softer than last year, but it gives a good guideline for your purchase.
Good luck and welcome to the club soon,
Sonny Vo
If everything checks out, this is a great car. The price is high, even factoring in the low mileage of the car you are looking at.
Based on Excellence Market report, a '90 C2 Cab priced: low $25133, Excellent $32950. Keep in mind that this is the 2000 data. The market is a little softer than last year, but it gives a good guideline for your purchase.
Good luck and welcome to the club soon,
Sonny Vo
11-28-2001, 02:44 AM
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For 38 K, I would rather get into a 993...I think 38.9K for a 1990 C2 is a little steep. Shop around, dont jump on the first car you see....Its a buyer market, wait for the perfect car and perfect deal. Patience is very important when looking to buy a Porsche
11-28-2001, 02:45 AM
#5
Kurt:
That price does seem on the high side (like John pointed out). 1990 cars have three things you need to be aware of:
1. They don't have cylinder head gaskets and can be prone to start leaking. This usually occurs in fairly high miles, but it CAN occur early as well. The repair is not cheap. Most 1991 (and all 964s after that) cars will have the gaskets and engine updates installed, but for 1991 you'll need to check the engine serial number.
2. You likely still have the original Freudenberg dual mass flywheel installed in the car. You'll need to check the records to see if it's been replaced. Although the cylinder head leakage issue is somewhat over blown, the Freudenbergs ARE known to be real weak points in the car. That isn't to say that you couldn't go 100K miles with one installed, but it's unlikely. Most seem to fail between 35K-50K miles. The repair, depending on where you live will likely run between $2000-$3000.
3. The distributor belt will need to be checked, and you will need to install the vent kit if it isn't there already. These are maintenance issues. The vent kit is about $15.00 and 10min to 1 hour labor depending on where you want to install the vent (10min if you just tee it off the lines going between the lights, and an hour if you follow Porsches instructions and cut a hole in the air guide pipe). Checking the distributor belt is just to make sure it hasn't snapped. If it has you can get a rebuilt distributor from Porsche for several hundred dollars or let one of the shops that does this install a new belt ($150 if I recall correctly). Like I said, these are things that need to be checked but you should be aware of them.
Back to the price. I bought a '91 in January (the tail end of the sellers market, as opposed to our current buyers market). The car had 18K on it and is in mint condition. I paid THOUSANDS less than your dealership is asking, my car is newer model, it has the cylinder/engine updates installed, and I suspect my area commands top-dollar (Washington DC area) for cars. That said, even though Cabs generally tend to run a few thousand more than coupes (like mine), I would DEFINITELY try to negotiate the price down (like about $5000). That's what I did with my car.
By the way, don't be alarmed by the "faults" I identified above. If I was frightened by them I never would have bought my C4. All cars have problems of one sort or another. I'm just trying to let you know what to watch out for.
Hope this helps,
Bill Wagner
That price does seem on the high side (like John pointed out). 1990 cars have three things you need to be aware of:
1. They don't have cylinder head gaskets and can be prone to start leaking. This usually occurs in fairly high miles, but it CAN occur early as well. The repair is not cheap. Most 1991 (and all 964s after that) cars will have the gaskets and engine updates installed, but for 1991 you'll need to check the engine serial number.
2. You likely still have the original Freudenberg dual mass flywheel installed in the car. You'll need to check the records to see if it's been replaced. Although the cylinder head leakage issue is somewhat over blown, the Freudenbergs ARE known to be real weak points in the car. That isn't to say that you couldn't go 100K miles with one installed, but it's unlikely. Most seem to fail between 35K-50K miles. The repair, depending on where you live will likely run between $2000-$3000.
3. The distributor belt will need to be checked, and you will need to install the vent kit if it isn't there already. These are maintenance issues. The vent kit is about $15.00 and 10min to 1 hour labor depending on where you want to install the vent (10min if you just tee it off the lines going between the lights, and an hour if you follow Porsches instructions and cut a hole in the air guide pipe). Checking the distributor belt is just to make sure it hasn't snapped. If it has you can get a rebuilt distributor from Porsche for several hundred dollars or let one of the shops that does this install a new belt ($150 if I recall correctly). Like I said, these are things that need to be checked but you should be aware of them.
Back to the price. I bought a '91 in January (the tail end of the sellers market, as opposed to our current buyers market). The car had 18K on it and is in mint condition. I paid THOUSANDS less than your dealership is asking, my car is newer model, it has the cylinder/engine updates installed, and I suspect my area commands top-dollar (Washington DC area) for cars. That said, even though Cabs generally tend to run a few thousand more than coupes (like mine), I would DEFINITELY try to negotiate the price down (like about $5000). That's what I did with my car.
By the way, don't be alarmed by the "faults" I identified above. If I was frightened by them I never would have bought my C4. All cars have problems of one sort or another. I'm just trying to let you know what to watch out for.
Hope this helps,
Bill Wagner
11-28-2001, 03:27 AM
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Kurt-
I payed about $34K for my '91 C2 with 57K on the odometer down here in Tacoma. The market is softer now, and even then I felt I was paying a little too much, but it was loaded, the exact color I was looking for with the right interior, the flywheel and distributor were both done, and the car just felt right and the guy knew it. That being said, if I would have known what I know now about the car and 964s in general, I would have tried to use that info to get them down another $2K.
I think $38K is too much. The mileage isn't a selling point in my opinion for an 11-year old Porsche, and the points that Bill mentions. In fact, I would use the low mileage against them. If you can spend that kind of dough, why not go for the 993? If you'd rather save the money, I would offer $32K and see where that goes. The guy may just be out of tune with the market. Explain to him what the market conditions are, potential repair costs, that you are motivated to obtain a 964 from *someone* soon, you like his car and all, but.....
You know people up in the NW are hurting with tech stocks in dumper. He might be very motivated, but out of touch with the pricing. On the other hand, he might be one of these types who really doesn't want to sell unless someone turns his arm with a lot of cash.
Jon
I payed about $34K for my '91 C2 with 57K on the odometer down here in Tacoma. The market is softer now, and even then I felt I was paying a little too much, but it was loaded, the exact color I was looking for with the right interior, the flywheel and distributor were both done, and the car just felt right and the guy knew it. That being said, if I would have known what I know now about the car and 964s in general, I would have tried to use that info to get them down another $2K.
I think $38K is too much. The mileage isn't a selling point in my opinion for an 11-year old Porsche, and the points that Bill mentions. In fact, I would use the low mileage against them. If you can spend that kind of dough, why not go for the 993? If you'd rather save the money, I would offer $32K and see where that goes. The guy may just be out of tune with the market. Explain to him what the market conditions are, potential repair costs, that you are motivated to obtain a 964 from *someone* soon, you like his car and all, but.....
You know people up in the NW are hurting with tech stocks in dumper. He might be very motivated, but out of touch with the pricing. On the other hand, he might be one of these types who really doesn't want to sell unless someone turns his arm with a lot of cash.
Jon
11-28-2001, 09:49 AM
#7
I agree with the above comments on the price. It's too high, even IF you could confirm it has the updated flywheel.
At the risk of igniting a cab vs. coupe war, keep in mind the cab has less footwell room, and, unlike a coupe, you will have to install a rollbar if you ever take it to a track for a driver's education (DE) event.
Market Note: I gave $29,500 for a '91 C4 coupe in August with 47k miles. It has the updated flywheel and 993 wheels/aero mirrors too.
At the risk of igniting a cab vs. coupe war, keep in mind the cab has less footwell room, and, unlike a coupe, you will have to install a rollbar if you ever take it to a track for a driver's education (DE) event.
Market Note: I gave $29,500 for a '91 C4 coupe in August with 47k miles. It has the updated flywheel and 993 wheels/aero mirrors too.
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11-28-2001, 01:48 PM
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Ditto, Ditto
The price os WAY too high. I just bought a late 91 cab 52k miles, absolutely pristine condition one owner for 25,00. I'd suggest you check E-Bay.........although you really need to see the car to bid properly, but there are some very nice deals going on. There is a 1992 cab with only 18k going for mid 20's
Tom
Cape Cod
The price os WAY too high. I just bought a late 91 cab 52k miles, absolutely pristine condition one owner for 25,00. I'd suggest you check E-Bay.........although you really need to see the car to bid properly, but there are some very nice deals going on. There is a 1992 cab with only 18k going for mid 20's
Tom
Cape Cod
11-28-2001, 08:59 PM
#10
I have to also agree on that asking price being too high, especially if you have to finance the car. $39k should get you into a nice early 993 if you look carefully.
13 months ago, I paid $28,500 for a 27,000 mile 1990 C2 in very nice shape with no updates. I spent $1500 in maintenance and minor repairs to get it perfect, but I still have the original Freudenberg DMF to deal with in the future. That time period was near the end of the 'seller's market' and I think I paid too much at that time (but I loved the car).
Be patient. Good things come to those who wait...
13 months ago, I paid $28,500 for a 27,000 mile 1990 C2 in very nice shape with no updates. I spent $1500 in maintenance and minor repairs to get it perfect, but I still have the original Freudenberg DMF to deal with in the future. That time period was near the end of the 'seller's market' and I think I paid too much at that time (but I loved the car).
Be patient. Good things come to those who wait...
11-28-2001, 11:43 PM
#11
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Way high!
Check around. Like the previous - For 38K I would look for a 993. If you are set on the 964 then look for a 93 C2, low miles, I have a 1990 C2 Targa. Excellent shape, updated flywheel, 72,000 miles, vent kit - $22,000. PPI checked out. Look around (www.autotrader.com, www.excite.com, www.porsche-classifieds.com)The market is soft right now, take advantage of it.
Check around. Like the previous - For 38K I would look for a 993. If you are set on the 964 then look for a 93 C2, low miles, I have a 1990 C2 Targa. Excellent shape, updated flywheel, 72,000 miles, vent kit - $22,000. PPI checked out. Look around (www.autotrader.com, www.excite.com, www.porsche-classifieds.com)The market is soft right now, take advantage of it.
11-29-2001, 12:04 AM
#12
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Kurt,
I bought my 1991 C2 Cab Tip from Leon at Exotic last year in October. The asking price was $37,999, and the car was very clean with 36,000 local miles. I paid $35,000. It's a year latter, your car is 1 year older - yours is a C4 (better to sell in winter ... but a Cab is a summer seller). Leon did not like keeping a Tip in inventory so he was eager to dicker. But unless yours has the update heads (like mine did), new clutch & distributor (mine did not & belt failed soon after $200) and new brakes (mine did not & will be done soon $800) ???
Like others have said it IS to much $$$. Tell him you have an option at Parkplace Ltd in Bellevue ( and you probably do - they have "50 Porsches in stock" ). I like Leon better than the slickers at Parkplace, but he is a salesman and will negotiate. The Seattle job market is Sinking so he won't move many cars till Spring.
1 Caution - don't by the car with out maint records in your hand. They where promised and never delivered ... and do pay for a PPI ... Leon will recommend Ackers - you may want to pick your own shop. There are several Club sponsors on the eastside if thats where you live?
Good luck
I bought my 1991 C2 Cab Tip from Leon at Exotic last year in October. The asking price was $37,999, and the car was very clean with 36,000 local miles. I paid $35,000. It's a year latter, your car is 1 year older - yours is a C4 (better to sell in winter ... but a Cab is a summer seller). Leon did not like keeping a Tip in inventory so he was eager to dicker. But unless yours has the update heads (like mine did), new clutch & distributor (mine did not & belt failed soon after $200) and new brakes (mine did not & will be done soon $800) ???
Like others have said it IS to much $$$. Tell him you have an option at Parkplace Ltd in Bellevue ( and you probably do - they have "50 Porsches in stock" ). I like Leon better than the slickers at Parkplace, but he is a salesman and will negotiate. The Seattle job market is Sinking so he won't move many cars till Spring.
1 Caution - don't by the car with out maint records in your hand. They where promised and never delivered ... and do pay for a PPI ... Leon will recommend Ackers - you may want to pick your own shop. There are several Club sponsors on the eastside if thats where you live?
Good luck
