Mike J

I just sold my 83SC and am now on the hunt for newer 911.

I have looked at the 964's but really like the 993s but that would push my budget to its very very end. The 964 is affordable.

I need some thoughts from the group about what benefits I get from a 993 vs a 964. I especially need ammo for the discussions with the spousal unit which will be occurring! The arguements have to be tangibles.

I can name a few 993 tangibles off the top of my head, such as :
- lower maintenance (ie no valve adjustments, etc)
- less deprecation (hmmm?)
- more modern amenities such as a heating system that works better
- easier resell if we have to dump the car

The 964's are strong as:
- almost the same power
- much cheaper and better bang for the buck
- flattening out depreciation curve
- easier to maintain as a DIY

I am also a dedicated DIY'er, and did all my servicing on the SC for 7 years (including clutches, full suspension upgrades, brakes, etc). How does the 993 and 964 fare if I want to do my own maintenance? I know about the "two elbows for the oil change" trick for the 993. The 964 is easy. What about the rest of the car or is it relatively maintenance free? I have explored some of the 993 and 964 DYI web sites BTW.

Does someone have a full list of the differences between the cars?

Cheers,

Mike
former owner of a 83 911SC

Randall G.

Hi Mike,

In my mind, one of the most significant improvements of the 993 is the 6-speed transmission. If nothing else, it's fun to have! That said, you can retrofit a 993 6-speed into a 964 C2 (like I have), if you don't mind springing for a used transmission (around $2500).

The 993 does have more power--especially in Varioram form--but the improvement in acceleration is kinda' modest. The factory quoted 5.5s for the 964's 0-60 mph time, 5.4s for the '95 993, and 5.3s for the '96-98 VRAM cars. The 993 weighing some 35 pounds more than a 964 surely negates a small amount of the power increase (maybe 3 hp?).

The 993 is supposed to have improved handling. But, like acceleration, a somewhat modest improvement.

I don't believe the 993's HVAC system is any different than the 964's, with a few exceptions. The 993 will have pollen filters, freon-free AC, and updated climate control unit (they have a tendency to fail, and are $$). Otherwise, same effective but complicated and expensive to repair system. Lots of blowers, servo motors and sensors to fail.

Based on what I've read on the 993 board, you don't save as much in maintenance cost as you might think with the 993's hydraulic lifters. People are still quoting the cost of a 15k service at $600-1,000--similar to 964 numbers. I don't see what they are paying for on a 15k service, considering that the spark plugs only get changed every 30k miles. That only leaves an oil change and miscellaneous odds & ends. On a 964 service, you know what you are paying for--getting to the valves and having them adjusted. Anyway, the over-priced 15k 993 services are not really an issue if you're doing your own maintenance. On the other hand, you will have to eventually get to all the plugs on a 993. I've heard stories of people that have some 60k miles on plug #x (forgotten the number), that is especially difficult to reach.

Another consideration with respect to the 993's hydraulic lifters is that they are failing on some cars. Not necessarily an epidemic, but not uncommon, either.

In summary, I can see purchasing a 993 over a 964 if:

-You really love the 993's styling.
-You gotta' have the 6-speed.
-You gotta' have the more powerful engine.
-You prefer to have a newer car.

It's my opinion that the 993's modest improvements do not justify the huge jump in price--at least for my money. It also helps that I prefer the 964's styling.

Good luck!

John McM

I had exactly this dilemma 6 weeks ago, do I buy a 964 or a 993?

In my local market (New Zealand) the prices are distorted by a rush of 964 imports from Singapore and Japan so the gap between the 964 and 993 is very wide.

I hummed and haahed for quite some time and then the problem solved itself, a '93 964 Turbo 3.6 came on the market at a price halfway between the N/A 964 and 993.

All of my desires were satisfied; more power than I could hope to use - 360 hp, one of the sharpest looks out there, and the car is in my favourite colour - silver.

It passes the pavement test as well, if that's what you like about the 993. I met a friend who has a red 993 RS, in town and I'd have to say the Turbo 3.6 attracted far more attention.

Having said all that, these cars are a rare as hens teeth and I think our market prices them lower than other countries, but I just thought I'd pass on my experience.

BTW: Another factor in my decision was my feeling that the 964/993 price gap is going to close markedly in the next three years. Many late model 993s are still being used as daily drivers, but that will change and I don't think the market for garage queens or weekend drives will support the price gap much longer.

Mike J

I am also starting to suspect that the price gap will also lessen because of the world market...how many high end stock brokers will be selling or defaulting on leases.

I have already seen a price drop here in Canada. I am in Vancouver, but Toronto is running 5-10K less for a 993 because its the hub of the financial world.

I am thinking of waiting another couple of months unless a real deal comes up. The economy is only likey to get worse and then "cash is king"!!

However, what arguements to I use for the spousal unit?

Jay H

Mike:

Randall's comments (once again) are right on the money. Not too much more I can add to those.

Here's my $.02: If you really have your heart set on a 993, you may want to consider waiting until your budget increases and get a 993 vs. getting a 964. If you get something other than a 993, every time you drive past one, you'll end up thinking "I should have gotten a 993". Get what you really want and don't settle for something you may regret buying. Maybe try to find that nice '95 993 ('95s seem to bring a little less than 1996 cars) with a few more miles on it to get inside your budget range.

When I was looking for my first 911, my budget allowed for buying a 911SC. But, I really wanted a 1986 or newer Carrera. I waited and found a Carrera and was very happy I did because it was REALLY what I wanted. (There is absolutely nothing wrong with SC's, it was just a personal preference for me)

I'm not sure on the lower depreciation on a 993. I kinda keep an eye on the market prices on 911's in my area. It wasn't long ago that you couldn't touch a 993 for much less than $48 - $50k. Now you see some '95 993's in the low $40's to even mid $30's.

I also still think the 964 is depreciating a little yet. When I bought my car about a year ago, most nice cars were in the low $30k range. Now, it seems most 964's fall below $30k.

Good Luck,
Jay
90 964

MelissaM

Mike,

I understand your dilemma. While I love my 964, sometimes I find myself pining for a 993.

The remark I find the most telling is this:

OK, I think if you get a 964, you'll always be thinking, "Yeah, it's nice, but it's not a 993. Some day..."

Now, let's try to put this into tangibles so you have some ammo for the spousal unit. The key thing at work here, I think, is depreciation. No one has a crystal ball, so they can't tell you how much a 964 is going to depreciate vs a 993.

My gut feeling is that the 993 will always be one of the most desirable 911's. It's the last of the air cooled line, the styling (to most) is gorgeous -- you can't exactly say this about the 964 or the 996. The engine, etc. on the 993 don't have that many problems reported. Therefore, while the 993 will depreciate, I really don't think it will drop as severely. My theory (very unproven) is that the 993's won't hit as steep a decline until Porsche replaces the 996 styling with something that the current Porschephiles agree is a worthy successor to the 993. Again, this is my opinion. Also, it doesn't take into account the economy taking a worse hit than it is currently.

The 964 market has taken a big hit with the economy. Heck, about a year ago I would have thought that I could quickly sell my '90 C2 Cab for $30k. Maybe a little more if I waited for the right buyer. Now it looks like I'd be lucky to get $25k. What did 928 Brothers say about Tom's '90 Targa -- $21,500? ouch.

The 993 market has also dropped. I think a '96 coupe went for around $50k about a year ago. Now they're around $40-45k. Some in the high $30k's, but they generally have higher mileage.

One more thing, and I'll quit rambling: The 964 could be the best 911 to own if you plan to use it as a daily driver. Think about it -- modern amenities like ABS, air bags, good heating & a/c, and, since it's not necessarily the most collectible of 911's, you can put the miles on it without feeling guilty.

Thanks for indulging my rambling.

Mike, good luck, and let us know what you decide to get.

-- Melissa

Mike J

I am always amazed by the responses I get on these lists and the amount of time people are willing to put in to help fellow p-car owners. Thanks!

I like the arguments so far. My wife knows that I will not stop upgrading until I get a 993. She is a little worried on what will happen then (ie she askes "Will this be your last car forever"). Well, geeze, forever is a long time! But a 993 would be with me for quite a while especially since the 996 does not turn my crank so much.

I agree on the prices..they seem to have gone down lately. I sold my SC for more than I paid for it seven years ago so that is great! But I also spent way too much money on it so you always lose. I have the cash so it might be a waiting game. With a lousy economy you figure there might be pessure on the prices.

I think my wife's major factor is just getting over the total cost. Coming from an immigrant family I guess she it still quite frugal. I am at times but that has changed as I get older. Figure you better go for what you want up front because life is too short to wait taking into account reality of course.

Thanks so far!

Cheers,

Mike

GeoC2cab

High,
Don't use all that ammo at once!!, You'll need more for that suspension upgrade, stainless steel exhaust, or those new tires!

Geo..

CmackG

Do whatever it takes to buy what you want. We all understand this. I personally waited six years of full-on jonesing to get my c4. I really never came to like the 993 until the 996 came out and uglied up the waters. 964, to me, is the last of the 911 styled cars. Some may see it as driving the old look to the ground, but I love mine.

As for heat, belive me, mine blows away any other car heater I've been near. More than ample. The car is hot inside within 2 miles of driving.


As for what's next, when my fiance asked me if I was donne wanting nice things, I told her nope, now I dream of owning a plane....

GeoC2cab

High,
Amen Craig, the 964 is the last of the original body style(the one i grew up drooling on), I dont have a crystal ball either, but the 964 body style has already proven it will stand the test of time, 993's we have yet to see, look ahead 10 more yrs(if we're all still here), one model comes to mind; 928, who knows if a 993 will suffer the same fate, one thing we can be pretty sure of however a 964 will be a classic,it already is...


ps. Melissa, I think there was a color identical to Arena red in 1991 however it was called Cranbury, or is that the match for orient red? I could be wrong though.

Thom Fitzpatrick

But she really wanted a mustang, and now she's "pining for the foooords!"

MelissaM

Thom, you're too much!

No, we're safe from Fords. I owned an '81 4 cylinder Mustang during college -- it was the car I drove after driving my dad's 912. I don't think I would have liked the Rustang ... oops, Mustang that much anyway, but it had some big shoes to fill.

I also owned a '93 Ford Probe GT -- nice car, but I never clicked with it.

So, no, I don't think I'll ever be lusting after a Ford.

Thanks for the laugh, though!

-- Melissa

Harold

Save and buy the 993 if you really like it. I have always wanted a 993, but got a 964 as an interim gap. A few months ago I found a really decent 993 garage queen that I was willing to adopt. Problem is when push came to shove, the cost to change up really didn't justify the additional benefits. My C4 was honestly more fun to drive, and the gear shift far more positive than the soggy 6 speed of a standard 993 (not comparing with the 993 RS). In the end, the low price for my car, coupled with the limited gains from the 993 have made me decide to hold the 964.

What all this means is that if you get a 964, you'll never justify getting a 993 later because they are just too similar. As such you may constantly pine for the 993 but never be able to justify getting it later- quite a painful experience.

Complete 964