carreracup21

I'm curious what people think of the 964 as a learning platform for high performance driving. Does it have any advantages over a newer car ? Would someone be better off learning in something else ? Before I purchased my 964, I had never been on a track. Now, after about 30 days of track driving I have my own impressions, but I would be interested to hear what you all think.

Tom W

I'm biased. I think it works just fine as a "learner" car.

Drew_K

I think the 964 is fine for learning DE, but there are definitely other easier, more forgiving cars to learn in. I think a better candidate for a novice is a car with less power and a more balanced weight distribution. That way a novice can't get into as much trouble because they won't carry as much speed and will be in a more forgiving car.

I still think the 964 is fine for learning, but, relatively speaking, I think the learning curve might take a little longer.

Drew_K

As to whether the 964 has an advantage over a newer car, depends on the car. I love my C2, but I think a novice will improve more quickly and probably drive a quicker lap time in a new 350Z than a 964.

tonytaylor

As a learner car I would agree with Drew that the weight distribution and speed of 964s make things more difficult than they need be. Moreover I feel they are rather heavy as well. All of which makes them a little bit intimidating once you reach the point of sliding around.
I think an Elise or a Miata is a better platform to start on.

ian c - u.k

hey tony , how did you get on at oulton ?

lots of people in uk are now buying cheap mark1 toyota mr2's as track weapons .
apparently a very well balanced car with a screamer of an engine

tonytaylor

Had a really good day
The new DO1Js are big improvement over the MPSC and I regained my lost confidence so was pretty quick.
Car was faultless.

ian c - u.k

what time did the rain arrive ?
how was it in the wet ?
any more this year ?

tonytaylor

4.30pm Slippy. Circiut was wet at the start of the day and the DO1Js are semi-slicks so it was tip toes, but as it wasn't actually raining and the track was drying it wasn't worth changing over to "wet" tyres. 6 or 7

ian c - u.k

lucky , lucky man !!!
any around ............
20th october
5th november
18th november
3rd december ???

just booked my flights home

joey bagadonuts

The 964's combination of power and handling does not make it the best platform to learn on. I also think a 996 or late-model turbo would be too much for any track newcomer.

For example, there's a gent who frequents the Racing & DE forum who goes by the handle, ColorChange, and he drives a 996TT modified to 600hp. He has maybe a handful of track days under his belt and can certainly drive as fast as any car on the track (I've actually seen him fly by). But I think that's just too much car for someone new to high performance driving.

The problem with such a car, with it's massive power and 275/315 tires, is that it's almost impossible to learn anything from it. You could virtually crawl through the corners and simply step on the gas to pass any car along the way. The same could be said for a Z06 Corvette or E46 M3. You may THINK you're doing well by passing everyone but you've barely scratched the surface with regards to your skills. And the danger with these cars is that learning the limits requires you to push them through the corners at such high speeds that a newbie might find themselves in over their heads and unprepared to deal with the situation.

A low-hp car is always a better car to learn in simply because you are forced to learn to be a better driver from the second you enter the track. There's no way you can catch anyone on the straights unless you develop the right skills from day one:

- Carrying momentum
- Weight transfer
- Line improvement
- Gear selection/optimizing the torque band
- Looking/thinking ahead
- Thinking in series of turns as opposed to one at a time
- Smoothness
- Car control
- Trail braking (critical in a 911)
- OVER braking (something we all need to do less of)
- Chassis setup
- Finding the limit
- Intensity

And all of these skills can be learned at relatively safe speeds in a low-hp car.

The 964 suffers from the same problem as the newer, faster cars. You don't really learn a lot from them until you work up your speeds. I just finished my third year of track events (40 days total) and I believe I learned more this past year than I did my first two combined.

The problem with a 964 is that it's power and handling mask a lot of driver shortcomings. For a few years, I thought I was doing well to pummel all the cars in the B and C groups. It wasn't until I sized up agains the A cars did I realize that I could raise my game even further. I began to apply all the skills listed above on a consistent basis because the only way for me to get a pass from that point on was to earn it.

I also bought an Intercomp lap timer to track my progress and maintain focus on improvement. I also compared my numbers to Club Racing results to ensure I wasn't deluding myself into thinking I was a great driver. For those keeping score, here are my best times so far: Road America 2:45.2; Gingerman 1:39:7; Putnam Park 1:23:8 and BFR 1:23:4.

In the end, what I realized is that having a great car out of the box wasn't the best way to develop performance driving skills. I could've been improving my abilities much sooner in a slower car instead of relying on great torque and R compounds to make me look good. At least now, I feel like my performance is finally catching up to the car's.

$0.02

carreracup21

Hmmm , good points. I agree the 964 has high limits, but really, are the cornering speeds that much different than a well handling 944, 968 or even a 914 ? I think all these cars tend to pull pretty close to the same G load at the limit when they are well set-up with similar rubber. The difference I see is power coming out of the corner. The 964 really drives out the corners well, putting down plenty of power that sticks and I think that's where it's faster. Overall, I'm happy I started with this car. It leaves you plenty of room for growth and it's a challenge to drive well. I think it can teach you some things that the others can't and will certainly let you know when you make a mistake. For me, it's been perfect. If you wanted to lower the limits and bring the speeds down you could always put on some 7's and 8's and slide all over the place nahhh, too much fun to go fast !!

joey bagadonuts

- Yes, the other platforms you specified can produce similar g loads.
- If you want to learn to drive a 911 at speed, then there's no point in starting with a front or mid engine car.
- The training model I had in mind was a 911 SC. Imagine trying to keep up with your 964 in that. Would you learn to be a better driver sooner? I think I might have.


- Yes, the 964 is the faster car (or at least equal to a 951S)
- The power disparity, however, can make it difficult to accurately assess one's skill level.
- To see how well you're doing, I'd suggest gridding next to a similarly set up 993 or 964.
- Comparing lap times to Club Racers is also a good way to assess progress.


- Agree. This car will be in my garage for many years to come.
- Glad you're happy with your choice!

carreracup21

Yeah, the club race times always been my comparison touchstone. I think the breakthrough for me came at 18 track days when I was able to do a 1:23.2 at Roebling which is a second off the pole sitter from the previous race at that track in D class. It's that last second or so that is really tough, and since then I have only managed to improve by 2 tenths at that track. I'll be down there again in Dec. for the race and we will see how it goes.

joey bagadonuts

Good luck on the race and finding those last tenths!