C2 Suspension refresh - RS ride height
 

Thanks guys. I appreciate the replies and additional input. I like the RS sway bar idea. Maybe I'll hold off the replacing all the bushings because they're in good shape. I was thinking about replacing them because I read a lot of good stuff about the Elephant sport rubber bushings but I can do that later. Maybe I'll do the following:

-KW V3's
-Elephant racing bump steer correction kit
-RS Sway Bars
-I think I'm going to do the RUF strut brace too

It's also worth mentioning is anyone is looking at coilovers, KW has a rebate of $150 for V1's and $350 for V3's from 3/1-5/31.

Subscribed in here Dtronics.... looks like a good list there.

Thanks, Tony. Hopefully you can get some ideas in here for your new car.

Glad this came up.

Steering rack brace?

Also Rennline is offering an upgrade to the factory ball joints. Looks like a nice area to get a little more performance, without cost or performance negatives. (no affiliation...)

http://www.rennline.com/newssection.asp?dept=1185


What are people's thoughts?

I refreshed mine with OEM stuff because there were a few folks reporting fitment issues with the Elephant kit and/or no real added value based on seat of pants feeling.

Yes, along with Ricochet steering rack bushings.

I purchased the Rennline HD bushings and ball joints simply because I was ordering other parts as well. I had Andreas refurbished my control arms and based on the many he has done, he mentioned that the Elephant, Rennline, FVD, ... bushings seem to be all made by the same manufacturer. Besides, they all have the same hardness specs. I wouldn't sweat it too much, buy them from your favorite outfit and enjoy the improved ride.

2nd that.

I’m planning to order suspension parts now but having some second thoughts. I’m looking to go slightly above (+10) RS height but it’s a street car. I’m debating V3’s vs PSS10’s which are both close in price. I had a shop recommend B6’s and H&R’s but I don’t know if that will get the height as low as I want. I have the same concern with the PSS10’s having a max 40mm drop. I’ve also read mixed things on the V3’s but they’ll definitely give me more than enough drop. I ran V3’s on a BMW M car and it was a little “bouncy” but overall I liked them. Again, looking for RS + height so any feedback would be appreciated.

You can get rs +10 w bilstein b6 and hr springs...

If you do the KW , remember to install the step down washers in the bottom hole, as they are drilled for 993 uprights.

Pss10 are expensive for what they are. But easier to set up than kw, since it's one knob does all.

Check w butzigear for some options as well. I'm sure dave can get you not only a better price on the kw, but he also carries jrz, and he would have some ideas relative to price that could fit the bill for you.

If i had it to do again, I'd not buy kw v3 and would have paid up just a bit and gotten more bang for the buck...

All that said- purely for street use- and not for really hard driving. But normal street quick...bilstein b6 and hr is a great combo- use the oem top hats up front and monoballs in the rear. Feels great and the handling is very good for street. And it doesn't cost nearly as much.

i went with the HR/Bilstein HD on my car. It’s a complete transformation of the cars suspension and dynamics. But, I’m getting a lot of bounce from the front end. It’s not banging on the bump stops...I know what that feels like. I have it set to The lowest possible ride height front and rear and the forward rake is perfect. But, the front axle bounce is sometimes irritating. Could you suggest something to fix it? Perhaps the elephant racing bump steer correction kit?
Thanks in advance

Do you have a side angle picture of your car? I’d like to see your setup at the lowest possible height.

Lorenzoh- depends on what you mean by "bounce"....

Bump steer is an issue at the lowest level w those struts, as it's lower than rs+10....but that's not "bounce" in my head....bounce to me would be more about rebound. Which would require revalving the bilsteins, which is easy enough to have done.

I've ridden in a 964 that was low on V3's and the front end also bounced - really rapid little bounces. That would drive me insane. I know they are adjustable but the car's owner works for Porsche! I think that once they are out of the "sweet spot" they become unruly.

The H&R Deep Coilovers available in the States through Rotiform are designed for going low, I know several people running them... https://rotiform.myshopify.com/collections/suspension

Thanks man. I’ve had V3’s before on BMW’s and experienced that “bouncy” feeling, the cars were pretty low. I’m curious to hear if the Elephant kits helps to stop this.

Ive looked at those deep coilovers. I ran H&R street coilovers on an Audi S5. From my experience, the H&R’s aren’t as good as KW, Bilstein, etc but for the street, they get the job done and this is a street car. It seems like you have a relationship with Brian at Rotiform, hook up a deal? Kidding

Most H&R Coilovers use Bilstein internals, conversely I'm pretty sure H&R makes the Springs for Bilstein Coilovers.

I've also had H&R's on several Audis and VW's from standard to ultra low. The Deeps are not the same as H&R Street in any way.

Do you happen to know the lowering ranges on the deep setup? Rotiforms site says up to 120mm but do know the full range off the top of your head? I believe the street set is 1-1.7” both front and rear.

I don't but if I had to guess I would say 40mm is probably the minimum. My car is pretty low and there are some lower than mine. I could probably raise mine to above RS.

Found a crappy pic from when I installed them in 2013...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4f9b16f1f5.jpg

Nice. I didn’t realize you were running these on your car. Did you do anything else to your suspension when you installed these?

Im curious to find the ranges so I’ll reach out to rotiform. These go way lower than I would want but it’s an option. It seems like V3’s and H&R’s are the only kits in the price range that go below 40mm in the front. Thanks for the info.

I would rather run these high as opposed to running the others lower than they were designed to go.

I did new OEM mounts when I installed, that's it. It's a weekend car and I drive it down for Luft every year but that's about it.

I have a set of Elephant Racing tie rods getting ready to go in. While I may be too low to truly benefit, they can't hurt and I like the idea of the solid inner tie rods, especially for the money.

thanks for the clarification. Are you suggesting that my front shocks are worn out/need rebuilding? They are the stock Bilstein HDs so I’m not sure why they’d need to be revalved?

here ya go:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9b20585df.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7e84b8964.jpeg

looks good! Are those the blue/purple H&R sport springs?

Thanks!!

These are the ones I bought:

H&R 29813 Sport Spring

Yup, those are the ones I thought... thanks. Hopefully you can get that bounce issue figured out.

I’m still debating what to do. I know this topic has been discussed countless times but I always like getting up to date information/ feedback.

For the street, I think the PSS 9 or 10s are overkill. Sure they’re adjustable, but I’d rather have something that’s fixed and works well. Plus I’m not a fan of getting down on the ground and reached under the car playing with the settings. This is the third HR/Bilstein combo I’ve had and I love it. Just wish I could figure out why the front end is so bouncy....or as mentioned above the rebound seems out of whack. Not sure what the term is for it but I’m wondering now if my front shocks are not valved properly for the HR spring rate. If that’s the case, then did I get a bad batch?
Anyway, it’s only bad over really rough surfaces...on smooth pavement they’re amazing.

Bilstein will work with you re-valve shock to your needs if you contact their office in Cali. I did that with my old bmw 2002tii and it worked out well. Maybe you can simply describe the problem and send in the shocks.

Pete

Noooooo, I'm saying you clips just have the bilsteins revolves to feel however you like. If you believe they go low enough, which for RS +10, they do, and if you like the spring rates you have, sending them off to be revalued is a lot cheaper than buying a new setup.

If you switch to a "better" coilover set, you will likely end up with a higher spring rate, and will be over sprung when you have them set to the soft settings, which could be reason for the bounce. And the reports of the bounce in the kw v3 previously noted. As the spring rates will be more appropriate for the stiffer settings.

Anyway it's worth a call to bilstein to discuss. As it may get you what you want, and save you a few thousand in the process.

That makes sense, thanks for taking the time to explain. I also found this thread which describes exactly what your talking about.

https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...revalving.html

This is a good point – you may consider just replacing the springs with a lower rate to match the damper settings that you prefer.

This thread got me on the ball to adjust my compression and rebound settings today. I had gone almost full soft for the winter. And i also had a little bounce - kwv3 -

Fwiw, bounciness can so be a problem when your front and rear settings are mismatched.

I run same settings front and rear. And i tend to keep things simple since most of my driving is street, and if i do get to a track, it's not like i have a lot of time to play with settings to work on better laps times...

So here is where i am- just to throw it out there. Compression +5 clicks from full soft. And rebound +8 clicks from full soft. Bounce is gone and the ride is still compliant for the street, but feels like a sports car again.

I know this has little to do with this thread, but since the kw had been mentioned, figured I'd toss it out there.

These are two good threads on setup.
https://robrobinette.com/S2000KWV3.htm

https://robrobinette.com/S2000KWV3Tuning.htm

And even if you don't have kwv3, it's a good read to have a basic understanding of how all this stuff works.

Now back to our originally scheduled program....

Fwiw- on the 3.9 liter monster that Peter Dawe is building us...(read- "for John"), Peter bought new springs and sent the bilstein b6 John already had, to bilstein for revalving. So just putting that out there, as it's not "a lesser" version of a strut to go that direction, when even legends in the world of performance do the same. The question really is - who is the guide to what valving for your spring rates and setup...so I'm curious to hear if you call bilstein, what help they are in that process.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7968083d9.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b1dc949f5.jpeg
My 964 is on KW3 with a lot of Elephant Racing components. I have no bounce, the ride is perfect in my opinion. It’s currently right around RS ride height.

But, the race shop I use set it up for me knowing how I like my cars to handle.

I like it better than PSS10s I had on another 993.

Good feedback, thanks. Your 964 looks great with the LM’s.

Amazing stable of cars in the background too!

Seems like a whole lotta effort and money for a street car. I'd get some matched shocks and springs and set it and forget it.

Do I need to buy the inner and outer tie rods on this page in addition to the bump steer kit?

No, the bumpsteer kit replaces those.

I called Elephant to discuss the Minty and what my goals were for the car... probably do about 500 miles a year, no track or anything like that. Just want it riding nice and looking better.
Already ordered my KW V3s since I have them on my other car and love 'em

Here's the quote they replied with, seems way over the top, but hoping someone smarter than I can chime in with what might be unnecessary or a stupid idea for this particular car given my goals and the value of my car.

- Front strut top shock bushing $562
- Front rubber bushing for lower control arm $200
- Front lower control arm rubber sport hardness bushing $158
- 935 X QuickChange front strut brace $580
- Ball joint $280
- Front tie rod kit with adjustable bump steer / angled head $550
- Drop link set adjustable length and spherical bearing $325
- 20mm front sway bar bushing $60
- Rear shock mount $340
- Trailing arm rubber bushing kit sport hardness $750
- Spring plate monoball cartridge kit $560
- 18mm rear sway bar bushing $38
- Drop link set, adjustable length spherical bearing w/boots $250

Subtotal: $4653

Seems *excessive*, but I really don't know what half this sh*t is. I just want to lower the car a bit and refresh for a occasional drive without getting too carried away or negatively effecting the value of the car.
I know some will say to do absolutely nothing and wrap the car in bubble wrap, but that's not really me. Still, I can appreciate the history of the car and don't want to be the guy who messes it all up.

^drive it first as is without anything. Then find a fully sorted 964 from a member here and drive that car.

Then, suggest you do suspension, front control arm bushings, (front tie rods and end links if necessary) and then just drive it. This is not going on track so it is not going to be pushed.

Can't imagine all those bushings have timed out. If so, then go back in once you are familiar with the car.

I never like doing long list part swaps. You never know what changed the character of the car. It makes sense with on the way stuff but just to throw $5K of bits like this is a bit much.

Don't you own a few 964s? Definitely drive it first without doing anything except buying an extra DME.

I am sorting out my barn find 51K mile 964 and just driving it first except mechanical maintenance stuff like plugs, filters and fluids for baselining.

I did V3’s and the Elephant bump steer kit on my 25k mile C2. My shop talked me out of doing more because it’s a street car. The car drives great. I didn’t want to take it too far from original and I love it. Here’s how it looks...
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cf947a511.jpeg

This is good advice. Really the only thing I'm in a hurry to do is to lower the car a bit so it satisfies my visual requirements. Then I can drive it a little and get a feel for the car.
I do have a couple others and they're both pretty sorted out from a suspension standpoint... they're different setups and I can't really tell the difference either way so I'm probably the kind of guy who doesn't need $5k in suspension upgrades. LOL

That *looks perfect*!! Very nice man ... so just bump steer kit, no inner tie rods?

You might have or have not but in case you haven't check out Goughary's Suspension madness thread. He's made good suggestions on what he feels you should and shouldn't do. i.e. Spring Plates - check the bushings if they're good there really isn't a need to replace it. I would start with the bare minimum first like coilovers and go from there. Also, I will say unless you plan to lower further than RS height I don't really think a bumpsteer kit is needed and that might even be a stretch.

Thanks! I just did the bump steer kit and I’m at 8mm lower than RS height in front.

I'm in exactly the same position except I have a 993. I have a new set of V3s, would like to go to RS height and have been paralyzed about what other suspension components to change. My car will only be street driven buts it's easy to be sucked into the rabbit-hole of replacing a bunch of components that, I feel, don't need to be replaced on a street car. This thread has been instrumental in helping me decide to just go with the V3s and the bump steer kit. Thanks

Rob graciously offered his car for me to drive.. I still cannot decide if it is a good thing or not. My list has lengthened for sure.. :)

My plan is to have him drive my modded 3TT and make him sell one of his organs/kids..

It's a rabbit hole isn't it?

Hahah...yeah I'd probably be selling an organ or two myself for a 3TT

I'm in the middle of this process as we speak.
What did you end up going with Tony?
I am going to refresh the suspension (looking at Goughary's thread as "inspiration").
I have a C4 on the Bilstein/H&R red spring combo- right now I am at about RS+10, would like to be a hair lower though.
Should I spring for the bumpsteer correcting kit? Or just purchase regular stock tie rods? I do a lot of driving, but it is mostly street/mountains. I used to track the car in the past and do like the "stiffer" feel. Just ordered ERP Sport bushings for the control arms.

Some info on what I did: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...h-kw-v1-3.html

It took a few iterations to get it right but it is brilliant right now!

So after a bit more research-
I think I will do the Tarrett RSR inners mated to the stock outer tie rods.

Will report back once I get it all ordered/installed!

What made you go this way versus the elephant racing kit? Asking because I’m in the same boat and trying to decide for my street car as well.

Honestly, it was a mix of price and seeing that if I lower below RS height that the car wouldn't benefit from elephant racing.

But, as always, I am open to being convinced otherwise!

Thats all you need. The outers are strong as heck and don't really need replacing. Change bushings on the front control arm if they are old or worn. You don't need the bump steer for anything up to RS height.

Good to know!
I have the Elephant Racing sport bushings in hand. Just gathering all the parts to jump in.
Will be ordering the Rennline ball joints that they advertise as being 20% stiffer than Lemforder/Porsche brand. Cheaper too, so seems worth a try!

Edit: Fixing an error- meant to write ball joints, not tie rods from Rennline.

I have an email out to Rstrada about ERP about their inner tie rods. Hope I can order soon.

Speaking of Rennline, while you're in there, Rennline HD series ball joints.
https://www.rennline.com/Rennline-HD...nfo/S%2D03014/

Yes! I stupidly mixed up ball joints with tie rods in my last post - updated it to correct myself.
Will be ordering their ball joints. Have you been happy with them?

I did them while upgrading the steering rack brace/bushings and Elephant tie rod kit. One of my ball joints was worn, so I'm glad I did it.
I had a couple parts installed and a complete new geo/suspension setting I can't isolate any one part. All of it together is really nice though.

Just bought kw v3’s and I guess elephant racing bump steer is a good street setup. Anymore feed back from those guys a season later?

I'm running my 64 at RS -20mm with no bumpsteer kit and have no bumpsteer issues that need driving around. You can run a 964 very low without the need for one if you set it up well. There is a thread of my build someone on this forum which may help