gregmitch

Streetdaddy

Goughary

My car was 58k miles and just like that one- a bit less of the other types of sorting...but all original 58k car. Many moons ago.

And the top end was rebuilt at 71k....lol

All you need with regard to the motor is a good ppi and a good set of eyes, and a little luck. Lots of things have Happened over the years that affect these motors, not least of which was the reformulation of motor oil for street cars (and the ridiculous addition of ethanol to gasoline).
Shortly after these cars were made, the govt mandated zinc and phosphorus out of motor oils under the guise that they were being environmental- which btw is the same bs line they gave about increasing ethanol blending. What they achieved by mandating zinc and phosphorus out of motor oils, is most old cars crapped themselves in short order, and were replaced with new, because old cars needed zinc and phosphorus in the oil. (Anywhere you have two pieces of metal coming together under pressure and heat, you need these things for lubrication). Soooooo flat tappet cams for example...as well as your crank bearings, rod bearings etc, all benefit from the lubrication.

So what happened. Ready? "Joe" bought a Porsche in 1990. Joe had been an avid reader of road and track and was a real car guy, watching f1 on the weekends and showing his new shine Porsche to his buddies at the club in the afternoons. Joe drove his sedan to work and left his Porsche in his garage during the week.

But- joe knew that Mobil 1 was the BEST oil out there because they said so 10 years earlier in road and track- and confirmed in car and driver. Maybe even in motor trend.

We won't get into what happened when joe found his 82 thousand dollar Porsche dripping on his freshly painted super clean brand new garage floor after sitting for a week- nor his terribly self important complaint call to the dealer to explain to them that it's completely unacceptable that his expensive Porsche "leaks".....

Anyway- Mobil 1. Best oil in the world. So joe insists that he use Mobil 1 for every oil change.
Motor on down the road. 20-30 years later, you have a one owner car, that still "leaks", and the oh so caring one owner guy that knows his car so well now, has been feeding it an oil all these years that isn't the same oil he thought he was feeding it. Mobil didn't readvertise their Mobil 1 when they made the change to say "this oil will destroy your motor". They just took a couple important ingredients and went on with their business.

So here we are. Joes car looks great. It's had an oil change religiously every 5k Miles for 30 years. Has 58k miles on it. And unless you do a ppi and have it leaked down properly by someone that knows what they are looking at, you won't know anything about all the wear and how close that motor is to toast (and truth be known, even with a good leakdown, if it's not close enough to toast, you still won't know)

Long and short of it all. Low miles doesn't equate to a well cared for car. And high miles doesn't mean it's a piece of crap. You have to approach each one from the perspective of who owned it, what's been done, and what will it need going forward.

The only people who should approach one of these cars from a different perspective is the guy who is looking for a collector car that he won't be driving . Cuz that's a different story. If you plan to use it, you agree that you plan to break it and fix it and use it again. (Drive break fix drive).

And in that case, mileage is irrelevant. Know the car you are about to buy. And ask yourself how much will be spent on top of what I'm spending, over how many years.

alexl911

$79K !!!!

911Jetta

+1 So true, it all boils down to these simple questions, that need honest answers, and luck helps too.
Each car you look at can have such different needs. Good questions to ask at the start of any relationship.

Navaros911

What Goughary said... and oil isn't just oil, just like fuel isn't just fuel.

88bender

Hi guys

how many hours in labor is a full rebuild for the engine on 964 ?

thanks

Goughary

You can't look at it that way. Each builder is different. And you are talking abt a 30 yr old motor, not a bunch of new parts that are getting bolted together.

I'm sure if you talk to ten engine builders they will tell you ten answers, and not one of them will be accurate.

When i did my top end, it took nine months. The 3.9 we are building is going on a little over a year. I'm sure there are guys that have been in and out in a week.

You have to go with over-all cost and quality of work. This is one area where you get what you pay for if you choose the right builder. If you choose the quickest or cheapest, you will play a little roulette. Maybe it works out, maybe it's not so good. (I'm sure there is someone good out there who is both quick and cheep- i just don't know who that might be)

If the car runs w a crappy old motor, don't take a chance on spending money or rushing to have a crappy new motor.

Dingo

This is the best quote I've heard in ages!

88bender

I agree and thank you for your reply
in average how many hours something like this should take labor wise ?

Goughary

My answer to this would be "Lots"...which isn't what you want to hear. I would call one of the actual engine builders that is local to rennlist- like Steve Weiner. They will give you the correct answer straight from the horses mouth.

From my own experience- ever good build took a long long time, but much of that time was waiting, ether for parts to arrive, parts to get made, machining, etc...so i have no idea how many actual hours - or if i get what you are asking - how many billable hours, they actually worked...though i did get a bill, lol.

John McM

Agree. This is a job far removed from a set number of billable hours. The actual assembly of an engine with everything going well for me is approx. 20 hours. I’ve no doubt others would differ and I’d refuse to accept working for someone who expects it to be like a service on a modern car as nothing ever seems To go as expected. You either want it done right or not. I wouldn’t work for a fixed rate and have problems come out of my slice of the pie. The local OPC charges 15 hours for removing and refitting an engine.

John McM

Another point to consider. I saw an art piece where the galley owner wrote, “the price of this art work includes all of the artist’s abandoned efforts to perfect what you see in front of you”. I’d be more interested in the builders experience and work quality than how many hours they charged. I’m still not sure why this question is so important.

Catorce

You can keep rephrasing this in as many different ways as you like, you still won't get an answer. Here is an example why:

Engine Builder #1 takes a short block and does a quick deck height measurement, shimming the cylinders with a copper gasket and calling the job "close enough for government work" and it takes him 3 hours to put the cylinders and pistons on.

Engine Builder #2 takes the same short block and spends 10 hours measuring the flatness of the cylinder spigot face, then disassembles the case so he can re-machine it perfectly flat. Then, he spends another 10 hours making sure the cylinders themselves are the same as far as installed height goes. One of them is too long, so he takes 4 tenths off. Then, he spends another 10 hours rebuilding the short block, and when he is done, his deck height on every cylinder is identical as far as his instruments can measure.

Both assembled a long block in the end.

One guy took 3 hours.

Another guy took 30 hours.

Both are correct, depending on the mission.

Catch my drift?

88bender

I understand everything you guys are saying.
In AVERAGE, would you say around 40 hours? 60 hours? 80 hours?
Thanks