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Engine rebuild terms and costs?

 
Old 08-06-2018, 05:41 PM
  #16  
azander
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Just curious, what's the typical labor and parts breakdown of this? Is it about a 40 hour job with the rest being a lot of (insanely expensive) parts?
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:54 PM
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A full rebuild is a 50 hour job at my Indy. IIRC their charge is £5500 plus VAT which includes new head studs, rings, valve guides etc. One thing these engines ALWAYS need is new exhaust guides. My engine also required new cams and a few rockers.
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Old 08-06-2018, 06:18 PM
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It's great to have all of this information but i suspect it could lead to frustration with both owners and shops if it became all about price.

Pricing an engine rebuild is not akin to get a scheduled service done except that the number of hours of labour can be relatively easily assessed.

I am on to my second and likely last DIY rebuild so I know where the hours are e.g. hours to remove and refit an engine differ depending whether it is C2, C4 or tipo. The C4 is more work and I wouldn't be happy as a shop if someone was querying charged hours to someone else's C2.

When the engine is on the yoke, there is variability in the ease of taking off fasteners, depending on corrosion levels, particularly with the exhaust nuts and studs. Will you complain if it takes longer?

Once the engine is apart, what standard do you have for new parts? For example will you resurface or replace tappets and cams? Will you replace ovaled cylinders? Will you use Porsche branded or aftermarket parts? Will you split the case?

If I was doing this commercially I would want to have customers focused on a known outcome at a fair price. I wouldn't accept having a customer drop off the car and collect it with no communication in between. It just seems like a recipe for disputes.

FWIW my second rebuild is for a friend with OCD tendencies. It will be a fitting end to my rebuild phase.
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Old 08-06-2018, 06:47 PM
  #19  
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Spyerx is on point.

Pricing depends on end goals in terms of power output and a wide host of variables, from what work is chosen and who you chose to perform a given task.

Specialists cost more but they are special for a reason.

Think about out what you want to achieve and your time frame as well. And read and ask questions. Enjoy the journey
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:36 PM
  #20  
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Really good info but I don't want to get bogged down in the details of an engine rebuild. I'm trying to get an understanding of how much a 964 is really going to cost me and if I can really afford one.
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:06 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by alexl911 View Post
Really good info but I don't want to get bogged down in the details of an engine rebuild. I'm trying to get an understanding of how much a 964 is really going to cost me and if I can really afford one.
I would think it will be equal to or less than a 993 since it has fewer electronics. I noted in your signature that you owned a 993 at one point so you might go back to what you’ve experienced with that car as a starting point.

Good luck, they are amazing cars and very addictive. To me the biggest issue with the 964 is the slippery slope that seems to come with the car, somehow it hints at little or big upgrades that will add up to $$$$ with time.
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:07 PM
  #22  
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This is a great thread and very informative. It would be great in a figurative way(because these aren't Chevy's or Ford's) that you could just buy a crate engine and do a complete engine swap and take the guess work out of it. Is there such a thing out there? I've only seen Vertex that offers something close to this? Has anyone bought one from Vertex and gone this route? Also I'm assuming by the time you pull the motor, disassemble all of the accessories, swap it out and reassemble that probably adds $3k of $4k if you have a shop do this?
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:22 PM
  #23  
Goughary
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Alex. It's going to cost you 60k

Essentially you will find one for 40, and over 5-10 years you will add 20. Or 45 and add 15, 50 and add 10...

It's just the way it goes.

Buy well and get lucky...it's possible. But put in your mind 60k, and plan for that. If there is money left over, you'll be happy and buy yourself a gift...like maybe a 914? Lol...
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:01 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Goughary View Post
Alex. It's going to cost you 60k

Essentially you will find one for 40, and over 5-10 years you will add 20. Or 45 and add 15, 50 and add 10...

It's just the way it goes.

Buy well and get lucky...it's possible. But put in your mind 60k, and plan for that. If there is money left over, you'll be happy and buy yourself a gift...like maybe a 914? Lol...
Same advice you gave me and because of it I will be starting a side Porsche savings for stuff that will eventually break or want to change over time. Just a matter of how steep that slippery slope is
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:06 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by alexl911
OK, so realistically looking at $10K for a car with over 100K miles and up to $30K+ for a fresh engine. The prices for used cars don't seem to take these costs into account.
Sad part is used prices DO account for the costs. If you wanted a freshly built motor, expect to pay. The quotes you've gotten so far are right on the money (couldn't resist the pun). Do a lot more research before you pull the trigger on any car. A PPI is a must
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:12 AM
  #26  
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Good info here covered on engine rebuilds... but as mentioned above a lot of 964 engines run strong but leak some oil

'Reseal' jobs to address leaks and seepage can also get expensive, depending on the OCD nature of the car owners and how sly the indie service writer/shop owner can be, but as Rob mentioned many common areas can be addressed for somewhat less $ than 'rebuilds'... knowledgeable, handy owners can troubleshoot the issues and address, or find that rare indie that will do it for you and not go for the big bucks route...

https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...at-s-next.html
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:39 AM
  #27  
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I personally don't feel the rebuilt engine adds value to a car (unless it was very recently done).

Depending on the person who did the work it may be decent work, or not at all. And I expect to buy a car in decent shape anyway... "car runs fine" is often seen in ads and therefore the one with the recently rebuilt engine may work just as well as one running on original seals.

In my case I bought a 964 with a rebuild by an OPC. The car at some point ran poorly on hot days and leaked a lot of oil. So in it goes with my expert mech (40 years of 911 experience, worked for Porsche, Ruf and as a mech at 24 hrs Le Mans... in short, he is the only person that knows my car better than I do). He opens it up after 20k km since the previous rebuild. Started by stating a valve hit the valve cover at some point... next he discovered cylinder bore scoring, I asked him to strip further, next was a blue con rod. Clearly some things were not done right with the rebuild the first time.

At that point my wife said, just go all in... she's gold I tell you. So blank check comes out, but I source parts.

Full rebuild, new pistons cylinders, con rods, bearings, chains, seals, valve guides. Everything machined and cleaned that needed it. New sensors... anything replaced that looked worn. Oil hoses, vacuum connections hoses... but didn't do plating since it was my daily car and I just don't care for a bling look in the engine bay. Total cost: a hair over 10k USD 4 years ago.

I got lucky with a good few new parts like pistons and cylinders (Mahle) for 1100 and con rods new for 350.

Engine runs fine now with no need for adding oil between change intervals at 5k km or 6 months.

So the moral of the story is: even though an engine got a rebuild does not make it better... and just because lots of people spend a lot on rebuild, doesn't mean it can't be done right for less.

But you know what you do to the car... so building it yourself or by someone you trust adds a certain value. And by driving it first for a while, you will know better where you want to take it.

Good luck, don't get scared, be prepared and do a PPI.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:54 PM
  #28  
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I have a good relationship with Pat Williams in Memphis, who I'd consider to be an excellent engine builder. He's told me on multiple occasions, that the most expensive rebuild typically will be on an engine that someone who didn't know what they were doing has already been in. He too said that a "re-seal" in his terms is a joke in that once you get to that point the engine will need more than just some new seals. He's far from the cheapest, but he builds a great engine that will out perform many others, and won't cheat you. The last thing you want is someone that paints a rosy picture of how long it will take and how much it costs, and be way off base. You are getting good information in these posts. Get three estimates, and talk to all the Porsche enthusiasts in your area to find the most reputable place, not the least expensive.
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:39 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Navaros911 View Post
I personally don't feel the rebuilt engine adds value to a car (unless it was very recently done).

Depending on the person who did the work it may be decent work, or not at all. And I expect to buy a car in decent shape anyway... "car runs fine" is often seen in ads and therefore the one with the recently rebuilt engine may work just as well as one running on original seals.

In my case I bought a 964 with a rebuild by an OPC. The car at some point ran poorly on hot days and leaked a lot of oil. So in it goes with my expert mech (40 years of 911 experience, worked for Porsche, Ruf and as a mech at 24 hrs Le Mans... in short, he is the only person that knows my car better than I do). He opens it up after 20k km since the previous rebuild. Started by stating a valve hit the valve cover at some point... next he discovered cylinder bore scoring, I asked him to strip further, next was a blue con rod. Clearly some things were not done right with the rebuild the first time.

At that point my wife said, just go all in... she's gold I tell you. So blank check comes out, but I source parts.

Full rebuild, new pistons cylinders, con rods, bearings, chains, seals, valve guides. Everything machined and cleaned that needed it. New sensors... anything replaced that looked worn. Oil hoses, vacuum connections hoses... but didn't do plating since it was my daily car and I just don't care for a bling look in the engine bay. Total cost: a hair over 10k USD 4 years ago.

I got lucky with a good few new parts like pistons and cylinders (Mahle) for 1100 and con rods new for 350.

Engine runs fine now with no need for adding oil between change intervals at 5k km or 6 months.

So the moral of the story is: even though an engine got a rebuild does not make it better... and just because lots of people spend a lot on rebuild, doesn't mean it can't be done right for less.

But you know what you do to the car... so building it yourself or by someone you trust adds a certain value. And by driving it first for a while, you will know better where you want to take it.

Good luck, don't get scared, be prepared and do a PPI.
This is exactly the scenario I'm afraid of!
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:56 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Goughary View Post
Alex. It's going to cost you 60k

Essentially you will find one for 40, and over 5-10 years you will add 20. Or 45 and add 15, 50 and add 10...

It's just the way it goes.

Buy well and get lucky...it's possible. But put in your mind 60k, and plan for that. If there is money left over, you'll be happy and buy yourself a gift...like maybe a 914? Lol...
Every $50-60K 'original' car I've seen also requires more than just engine work such as rust repair and an all new suspension so they will quickly turn into $80K+ cars. OR keep saving and get something like this: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-79-995-a.html ??
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