DaveK

Ah well, if we're allowed to post completely irrelevant comments now.....

I tried Avons on my GSXR once (motorcycle for you heathens that don't know) - and they were total rubbish.

robmug

Dave - Rennlist is SUCH a public place to make ****-ups!

Still, I'm hoping that no-one else has noticed.

I wonder if my irrelevant information influenced Christer's tyres decision...that would be quite funny I suppose!

DaveK

I'd think so anyway - given that I bought Kuhmos on his recommendation and don't like them!

tonytaylor

Christer,

Have you thought about the Pirreli P-Zero Corsa. Still not good in the wet but apparently significantly better than MPSC`s and really grippy in the dry without having to get the type of heat in them that MPSC`s need. Some of the hillclimbers/sprinters prefer them since they are setting off relatively cold.
They look like they mean business too.

Christer

Yes, it did- I bought an E36 M3 and did not fit Avon tyres. Doh!

Christer

Dave, I am sorry to hear that. I like them very much for the price.

After your comments I have done some 'testing' albeit without any yardstick as such - but bear with me. Having pushed the car a bit in the wet recently, it really is a doddle to make the car slide. However, when braking hard in a straight line, I still cannot believe that the 712's are particularly poor in that particular area, as the car brakes very well even when the road is very wet. Now remember, I don't have a direct comparison against SO2's but it would explain why I have not picked up on the somewhat inferior wet handling that you have mentioned. As I have said before, I don't drive the car that hard in the wet, so would not pick up on the fact that the handling might be a bit 'slidy', however I have had a couple of scrapes where I have had to emergency brake and the 712's have been pretty impressive - in fact in one situation I thought 'bye-bye car' but the car just stopped with minimal ABS intervention.

Is it possible that a tyre has for example better straight line characteristics in the wet, as opposed to actual lateral grip? This might explain things, although if anyone feels that I am clearly talking out of my backside then feel free to say so. My tyre knowledge is in the case of the 964 quite limited - I preferred the 712's over Contis, but have not tried other brands yet.

Dave, have you had more 'experiences' to reinforce the negative view of the 712's?

Christer

No, I haven't - but will definitely look into those. Thanks for the tip.

DaveK

Christer,
I'd actually agree with you completely - although it pains me to say it. I've also found they brake very well - and over Christmas I also had a "moment" where I was pretty sure I was going to total the car and had to brake very hard on a wet road. I was sure I wouldn't stop, but in fact stopped with loads of space to spare.

It's only the wet cornering where I don't like them - and even here they are odd. The two incidents I've had have been on sharp bends or roundabouts - and usually, with the SO2s if I'd been going too fast the front would have pushed. With the 712s, it's the back that wants to step out and I've never experienced that before - bit like the "old" 911s are supposed to handle I guess.

Since the last time I mentioned it happening on here, I've been a lot more careful in the wet. To be honest - it's made me feel a bit nervous when I'm cornering in the wet and it's slowed me down a lot - which is probably no bad thing. I will switch back to SO2's (or something else) when they wear - or might do it in the summer anyway and stick these on my old D90s as spares.

By the way - at the weekend, I was turning right at a roundabout in the wet (I was in the right hand lane of a dual carriageway) and there was a car in front of me. As we started going round the roundabout, a subaru impreza came up in the left hand lane and went around the roundabout very fast indeed. I have no idea what tyres he had but whatever they are I'd like them - I could never have got round there at the speed he did - I was impressed!

Christer

I think Toyo Proxes are quite popular with the ricer crowd....choices, choices.

joey bagadonuts

Something's not adding up, here.

If the 712's brake so well, then how could the back end break loose so easily? Nor do I understand how the Subaru can run away from you, Dave. You might not blow by him, but you should definitely be able to keep up.

Anything unusual about your alignment or tyre sizes? How about pressures? I run 225/255 17's at 36 psi f/r and I rarely get the tail out--wet or dry. The only time my car is noticeably loose is when the tyres are underinflated.

It sounds like these are great tyres, Dave, but that you might not be getting the most out of them. Your comments have me puzzled.

DaveK

Is it that simple though? I don't know anything about tyre technology - but Christers idea that lateral traction is different from straight line traction kind of made sense to me.

I wasn't actually trying to race the Subaru - there was another car in front of me. But, he went around the roundabout quicker than I would have tried - even with my old SO2s on. Maybe it's just a confidence thing but I was impressed.

My alignment is stock - although it's probably getting on for 18 months since it was done so may need doing again. Tyre sizes are stock - but this is on 16" wheels. Might be pressures - I used the Porsche recommended pressures for 16" wheels - have tried dropping them a bit since then. But since I don't feel that confident on them anymore, I'm not really pushing it - and I don't really want to be sliding around roundabouts as a way of getting the perfect tyre pressure! I would say they are definitely not under-inflated though.

Maybe I'm not getting the most out of them - but the change was noticeable when I switched from SO2s to 712s so I don't think it's the car. It will be interesting to see how I feel when I switch back to SO2s.

joey bagadonuts

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! The Factory recommendation is 36f/44r for 16s. Let me suggset you try 36 psi all around (~2.5 bars) and see if that balances things out. I'm not suggesting to know more than the Factory but their recommendation applied to certain tyre models which, in the case of 964's, are no longer produced.

Also, some autocrossers actually use soft front/firm rear pressures to enable their cars to rotate more easily, i.e. to induce oversteer. The intent is to modify the effective spring rates through tyre pressures. This may be what's happening with your car.

RSAErick

Perhaps the all wheel drive played a part, considering that it was in the wet? Plus, the Imprezza WRX actually handles admirably - they're one of the local Northwest favorites with the rainy conditions that we're used to.

tonytaylor

Dave,

I think Joeys probably right with the tyre pressures. On stock suspension in a C4 I can`t see how you can get the rear to be so loose other than over-inflating the rears; It should be understeer all the way.
Suburus have traction control de facto with the 4WD system and are easy to drive in the wet giving way to understeer almost no matter what. Their actual advantage is much less than you would imagine but they are confidence inspiring and as such tend to be driven right to the limit.

forklift

Well I joined Rennlist, should have those red letters soon.....I would have paid double, but don't tell them that.

I run Yoko 032-rs and really like them 235/255 17. The 235s rub on the inside, and my fenders are rolled. On the advice of many driver's at Summit Point I will be going to the Toyo's after my yoko's (they are fairly new). I hear people commenting on using Toyo's for rain tires, but my mechanic who does DEs uses Hoosier's (trailered) for dry (he recommends Toyo's non-trailered) and 032s for a rain tire. Before I buy the Toyo's I will look at the mpscs and the new Hoosiers, but will probably end up with the RA-1s. I just bought a spare set of wheels that already had S01s mounted.

Tony,

I love the set up on your car. Did you do the throttle body work seperate, or with other mods? Just wondering if you felt a difference that could be attributed to that. 298 is great, I hope to dyno mine and see where I am.

Also, I have pagid Orange with my stock brakes on the RSA, but find those stop me plenty quick. How much better do those TT brakes stop you? Did you have the pagids on your old brakes for an "apples to apples" comparison?

Thanks,

Jim