Singer Vehicle Design Celebrates Its 100th Commission
10-09-2018, 11:46 PM
#31
Multimatic likely has a contract with RUF to make a product that meets criteria outlined by RUF's engineers. However, Multimatic does ultimately have a liability to the governing body of motor vehicles. See EPA vs. Bosch.
Automotive "manufacturers" actually manufacture very little. Steel chassis components are usually stamped in house, not sure about aluminum chassis parts. CF construction requires tooling and craftsmanship that is probably beyond the logistics of most car manufacturers. I'm sure some can afford to do some CF components in house. Someone may correct me here.
For the most part, an auto manufacturer merely assembles a product.
Last edited by FrenchToast; 03-09-2019 at 12:50 AM.
10-10-2018, 12:25 AM
#32
Pro
A bit off tangent, but at Rennsport our gaggle of wannabes was agog at the Guntherwerks cars. Amazing CF work. Functional focus vs aesthetic, the latter what Singer seems to be. Singer seems a bit more Pagani-oriented vs Guntherwerks - a 997 GT3 RS in 993 clothing. Gwerks owner is a gentleman esp when he keeps being prodded w comparisons to Singer.
10-10-2018, 01:28 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
When I visited Singer I was told build time is 30 months, once a donor car is sorted out. Amazing level of detail, creativity and care. Not sure about their finances, payment schedules and what was agreed between buyers and Singer in the last, but difficult not to get impressed by the craftsmanship and vision behind it. For those who can afford, Singer does a great job in translating future owner's vision into a real and unique car. Just my 2 cents.
10-10-2018, 03:10 AM
#34
This might be a stupid question. But what's a sooner?
10-10-2018, 03:41 AM
#35
I don't understand why they don't seem weld all the tubs? They have the stripped tubs I would think it would be the first thing they do.
As you’ve probably surmised from the comments here, Singer isn’t the end all be all. Sure they make a great product, but at what expense? To the buyer, who is outlaying cloe to $300k and waiting years, to the purist who doesn’t want to see another great 964 get chopped up, or just another company staggering it’s AP and using its heavy updront AR to manage it’s every increasing Debt service for one off projects?
Those are all rhetorical questions, no need to respond.
10-10-2018, 10:08 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
I have looked closely at the singers. At the end of the day they are a glorified 964 with a reimagined body kit and bling that to my eye looks off. The craftsmanship is top notch but I see equal quality work done by my friends all the time at a fraction of the cost. I wouldn't trade my turbo for one which I find far better looking. I have had several people drive them tell me they would take my 3.6T over one any day of the week. I have no doubt my track car would spank the 4.0L in every way but comfort and bling for the price I could buy 5 or 6 fully loaded Singers.
If you need Nickel plated Carbon fiber bumperettes or quilted leather sound deadening than it is the car for you. To me it contradicts everything these cars are all about. Although I like the way Jay brushes off the lack of safety equipment by saying nobody is going to hit you anyway. Sorry but WTF odds are on the street someone will do something stupid. I have to watch very carefully with my C2 and the turbo even more so I can't imagine what idiots will swerve or try to catch up to you when driving one of these. I can't tell you how many times people race up behind me to take pictures and or video and If I'm not careful they will rear end me.
I switched from the early bellows car to the 964 because I never felt quite as safe in the earlier cars. No crash bumpers or air bags might be OK for a track car with harnesses and cage but IMO not a street car.
I like the second gen but $1.8M clearly the crack is of better grade than before.
BTW are there any comparison tests or data for these published anyplace? I would like to see what they are capable of other than attracting buyers that have more money than they know what to do with it.
If you need Nickel plated Carbon fiber bumperettes or quilted leather sound deadening than it is the car for you. To me it contradicts everything these cars are all about. Although I like the way Jay brushes off the lack of safety equipment by saying nobody is going to hit you anyway. Sorry but WTF odds are on the street someone will do something stupid. I have to watch very carefully with my C2 and the turbo even more so I can't imagine what idiots will swerve or try to catch up to you when driving one of these. I can't tell you how many times people race up behind me to take pictures and or video and If I'm not careful they will rear end me.
I switched from the early bellows car to the 964 because I never felt quite as safe in the earlier cars. No crash bumpers or air bags might be OK for a track car with harnesses and cage but IMO not a street car.
I like the second gen but $1.8M clearly the crack is of better grade than before.
BTW are there any comparison tests or data for these published anyplace? I would like to see what they are capable of other than attracting buyers that have more money than they know what to do with it.
10-10-2018, 10:48 AM
#37
Here is the video from Jay Leno's TV Show.
10-10-2018, 03:30 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
...Nickel plated Carbon fiber bumperettes or quilted leather sound deadening than it is the car for you. To me it contradicts everything these cars are all about. Although I like the way Jay brushes off the lack of safety equipment by saying nobody is going to hit you anyway. Sorry but WTF odds are on the street someone will do something stupid...
10-10-2018, 04:16 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
10-10-2018, 08:58 PM
#40
Track Day
While I only care about Porsche, Singer reminds me of the companies that sprang up after the movie, "Gone in Sixty Seconds". People were paying $100K+ for replicas of the tarted up Mustang, named, Eleanor, in that movie. The companies were taking six cylinder 67 Mustangs for the VIN from junkyards and slapping on body panels and interior bling. Singer is operating at a much higher build quality level, and I have not idea about their financials. The Eleanor builders eventually went out of business and the buyers lost their deposits. It's never a good idea to pay a big deposit upfront, and my experience is that rich people hate to be cheated as much as anyone.
10-11-2018, 01:19 AM
#41
There are plenty of builders in the hot rod and custom car world that turn out mid six figure cars, consistently, every year. Custom builds are always in the eye of the beholder, some love them, some hate them. Singer has carved out a niche for very well crafted cars, more power to them. Talk of financial issues from all I have seen are baseless, and unjustified. Singer vs. Ruf vs. any other company, or any particular individual isn't a winner take all. There is room for them all, and they all serve different customers. I have heard Alois Ruf speak well of Singer, and Rob speak well of Ruf, why do some try to make it an either or?
l've met the owner of the 100th car, he has a large collection. Hopefully the local PCA will take a trip to see it, I know I want to.
l've met the owner of the 100th car, he has a large collection. Hopefully the local PCA will take a trip to see it, I know I want to.
10-11-2018, 04:49 AM
#42
I was also not aware of these specific classic centres which they had opened.
I am also surprised the first one or indeed none of the 1st 3 were opened in Stuttgart or even in Germany.
I wonder what sort of prices they charge there. Same as regular OPC or higher still.
What would also be cool is if as they repair / restore more and more older 911s whether they would start to produce some of the parts again which were no longer available new from Porsche. Although in retrospect this could negatively impact the overall value of our beloved air cooled vehicles.
10-11-2018, 09:03 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
Why should they. Different products and customer base. Ruf has created some incredible builds over the years and they keep reinventing themselves. They build a product from the ground up using Ruf Specific vins and complying to the standards of the time. You won't see "Porsche" on a RUF. Singer is charging considerably more for a swatch build kit car that they are claiming to be the ultimate air cooled Porsche 911 which is debatable. Yes no two are the same but they are all variations of the same theme. The build quality is not in question it is clearly to the highest standards although some of the early cars had some issues, I have a hard time finding any flaws in the more recent singers I have seen. I can't say that about new Porsche's I see at the dealers today. Although I would feel far safer in a Ruf than a Singer which will just splinter when in an accident. If anyone gets injured in one I wonder if we will see a huge lawsuit? Standard safety equipment from even the 90's removed, no crash impact bumpers or airbags to protect you unlike the Ruf. Ruf builds in small quantities and Singer will soon have more cars on the road than there are 3.6T's remaining in the US. If it is exclusivity you want which is what most builds like this are about it will be hard to claim soon. You could put a Fiero body kit on the car and at the end of the day it is still a trailing arm 964 with a different look and added bling.
Interesting!
I was also not aware of these specific classic centres which they had opened.
I am also surprised the first one or indeed none of the 1st 3 were opened in Stuttgart or even in Germany.
I wonder what sort of prices they charge there. Same as regular OPC or higher still.
What would also be cool is if as they repair / restore more and more older 911s whether they would start to produce some of the parts again which were no longer available new from Porsche. Although in retrospect this could negatively impact the overall value of our beloved air cooled vehicles.
I was also not aware of these specific classic centres which they had opened.
I am also surprised the first one or indeed none of the 1st 3 were opened in Stuttgart or even in Germany.
I wonder what sort of prices they charge there. Same as regular OPC or higher still.
What would also be cool is if as they repair / restore more and more older 911s whether they would start to produce some of the parts again which were no longer available new from Porsche. Although in retrospect this could negatively impact the overall value of our beloved air cooled vehicles.
10-11-2018, 10:53 AM
#44
I really don't see why anyone is surprised by Singers success. The same has existed in the hot rod world for years. There are shops that have been building 30's rods to exquisite standards for 30+ years. The "pro-touring" builds in muscle cars and vettes started 25+ years ago and have grown into some fantastic builds that have kept interest going in the old platforms that would have never been possible if they were only restoring L88 vettes or hemi cuda's. Just like old Porsche's, there are not enough of the really great old cars to go around, and obviously not everyone wants a restoration anyway. In the muscle car world, the continuation of interest has allowed many small companies to spring up that are making some nice parts that the original manufacturers would never be interested in remaking. It has been a win-win for all enthusiasts.
How does it translate? For old muscle cars, you can buy a new six speed transmission for less than people spend on rebuilding a 915. Wouldn't it be great if enough interest was generated in these old cars so that someone did the same for our old 911's? Just in the last year or so, there have been developments on new 3.6 cases, one that supposedly goes to 5.0 liters!! That is good news for us all, even if I'm not getting one myself.
How does it translate? For old muscle cars, you can buy a new six speed transmission for less than people spend on rebuilding a 915. Wouldn't it be great if enough interest was generated in these old cars so that someone did the same for our old 911's? Just in the last year or so, there have been developments on new 3.6 cases, one that supposedly goes to 5.0 liters!! That is good news for us all, even if I'm not getting one myself.
10-11-2018, 11:27 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
It is all about the internet. If we had the internet back in the 80's it is possible there would be hundreds of Gemballa Avalanche's or far more Ruf cars today.
Everyone starts drinking the Kool Aid without a clear understanding of what is involved. Just like the 5.0L case you are so ecstatic about. They were stating was made form billet when in fact it is a sand casting and they throw "aircraft quality" or "MIL spec" because they use A356.0T6 aluminum alloy. For those that don't know anything about sand castings it is easy to make tall claims without substantiating or certifying it today because they read it on the internet and it must be true. LOL I applaud the efforts but they are using HIP claiming a super strong casting when in fact it is great process that allows sub par castings to be salvaged. A properly cast sand casting should not require it and will not benefit from it. A tall claim of 5.0L when no mention of how they plan to accomplish that and who will be making the P&C's and heads for it, will it be a bigger bore or longer stroke?
I can say I am building a fully reliable 1000 HP air cooled engine and not specify how and a large part of the people will read it and believe it even if it is BS.
If singer was building 100 uniquely individualized cars as the hot rod shops do I would be all for it but these are no different than buying a Maybach building it from a catalog of parts vs each piece custom designed and built to a specific owners taste and for $500K or $700K that is what you should be getting IMO.
Everyone starts drinking the Kool Aid without a clear understanding of what is involved. Just like the 5.0L case you are so ecstatic about. They were stating was made form billet when in fact it is a sand casting and they throw "aircraft quality" or "MIL spec" because they use A356.0T6 aluminum alloy. For those that don't know anything about sand castings it is easy to make tall claims without substantiating or certifying it today because they read it on the internet and it must be true. LOL I applaud the efforts but they are using HIP claiming a super strong casting when in fact it is great process that allows sub par castings to be salvaged. A properly cast sand casting should not require it and will not benefit from it. A tall claim of 5.0L when no mention of how they plan to accomplish that and who will be making the P&C's and heads for it, will it be a bigger bore or longer stroke?
I can say I am building a fully reliable 1000 HP air cooled engine and not specify how and a large part of the people will read it and believe it even if it is BS.
If singer was building 100 uniquely individualized cars as the hot rod shops do I would be all for it but these are no different than buying a Maybach building it from a catalog of parts vs each piece custom designed and built to a specific owners taste and for $500K or $700K that is what you should be getting IMO.