Singer Ordering Advice?
#46
Rennlist Member
Having driven an RS multiple times on track, I can't see how this would be possible....
Think about it for a second, a Singer is basically a lighter (in some specs) 964 RS with 400hp, better suspensions, better brakes, better everything. It's not really propaganda, those are facts!
Having said that, a 964RS is definitely on my "shopping list" as to me is the finest out of the box Porsche ever created and one of the purest driving experiences in the aircooled world!
Think about it for a second, a Singer is basically a lighter (in some specs) 964 RS with 400hp, better suspensions, better brakes, better everything. It's not really propaganda, those are facts!
Having said that, a 964RS is definitely on my "shopping list" as to me is the finest out of the box Porsche ever created and one of the purest driving experiences in the aircooled world!
I guess it depends how much you want to dump into a car. The singer runs stock on KW's (ohlins expensive upgrades) Brakes are somewhat stock unless you go with the big red or ceramic upgrade. Engine is a 300 HP 3.8 with optional 350 HP throttle bodied 3.8 or a 390 hp 4.0L. Body is CF and weight is reduced seam welded. All of these things can and are commonly done to 964's. Based on the package by all rights my dedicated track car should blow a singer away. I would also feel safer in my track car.
Light weight far more torque and more HP and many of the options seen on a singer.
I built the car on a budget and if I had 1/3rd the money to buy a fully loaded Singer I could have done far more with it putting it beyond what a singer promises and I would have made it both street and track worthy. Looks are subjective and some angles it looks great others IMO is a fail. I don't care for the interior crap and leather in my engine compartment just screams poser.
As nice as the singers are they aren't the holly grail that all the hype is about. The entire reimagined thing is BS. We have been modifying these cars and reimagining them to our personal tastes for decades and suddenly someone gets all the media behind it and raves what an exceptional car it is. As though it carries nothing over from the 964 when in fact the most critical aspects are still the same. It is nothing more than a 964 with a kit you order and have built for you . Not worth half the buy in IMO. I have driven some EFI converted turbo 3.6's putting down 560 hp to the wheels that I can assure you would easily outperform and offer a similar experience for hundreds of thousands less.
#47
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Surge74 - if you havent already made contact, PM me and I will get you in direct contact. If you are in the area, please stop by for an introduction and a tour. Happy to make this happen for you!
Best
Chris
Best
Chris
#48
Rennlist Member
I’ve owned 4 964RS’s, there’s plenty of low mileage, untracked, garage queens that don’t need any restoration available over here in Europe. They are stunning cars.
Buy one, send it to Jeff at Rothsport and have him build you a 380-400 hp motor, have the transmission re-geared, fit some OHLINS TTX’s and rework the suspension with some 993 RS uprights (or 9M replica parts) chuck the Elephant Racing catalogué at the rest of the suspension and get someone who knows their onions to set it all up properly. Then just drive one of the finest cars to roll out of Stuttgart.
Oh, and leave it narrowbody, so slim-hipped and more aesthetically pleasing as a result ...
Buy one, send it to Jeff at Rothsport and have him build you a 380-400 hp motor, have the transmission re-geared, fit some OHLINS TTX’s and rework the suspension with some 993 RS uprights (or 9M replica parts) chuck the Elephant Racing catalogué at the rest of the suspension and get someone who knows their onions to set it all up properly. Then just drive one of the finest cars to roll out of Stuttgart.
Oh, and leave it narrowbody, so slim-hipped and more aesthetically pleasing as a result ...
+1 on adding Rothsport/Elephant goodies to turn it up a notch or two. Otherwise it's just perfect!
#49
I guess it depends how much you want to dump into a car. The singer runs stock on KW's (ohlins expensive upgrades) Brakes are somewhat stock unless you go with the big red or ceramic upgrade. Engine is a 300 HP 3.8 with optional 350 HP throttle bodied 3.8 or a 390 hp 4.0L. Body is CF and weight is reduced seam welded. All of these things can and are commonly done to 964's. Based on the package by all rights my dedicated track car should blow a singer away. I would also feel safer in my track car.
Light weight far more torque and more HP and many of the options seen on a singer.
I built the car on a budget and if I had 1/3rd the money to buy a fully loaded Singer I could have done far more with it putting it beyond what a singer promises and I would have made it both street and track worthy. Looks are subjective and some angles it looks great others IMO is a fail. I don't care for the interior crap and leather in my engine compartment just screams poser.
As nice as the singers are they aren't the holly grail that all the hype is about. The entire reimagined thing is BS. We have been modifying these cars and reimagining them to our personal tastes for decades and suddenly someone gets all the media behind it and raves what an exceptional car it is. As though it carries nothing over from the 964 when in fact the most critical aspects are still the same. It is nothing more than a 964 with a kit you order and have built for you . Not worth half the buy in IMO. I have driven some EFI converted turbo 3.6's putting down 560 hp to the wheels that I can assure you would easily outperform and offer a similar experience for hundreds of thousands less.
Light weight far more torque and more HP and many of the options seen on a singer.
I built the car on a budget and if I had 1/3rd the money to buy a fully loaded Singer I could have done far more with it putting it beyond what a singer promises and I would have made it both street and track worthy. Looks are subjective and some angles it looks great others IMO is a fail. I don't care for the interior crap and leather in my engine compartment just screams poser.
As nice as the singers are they aren't the holly grail that all the hype is about. The entire reimagined thing is BS. We have been modifying these cars and reimagining them to our personal tastes for decades and suddenly someone gets all the media behind it and raves what an exceptional car it is. As though it carries nothing over from the 964 when in fact the most critical aspects are still the same. It is nothing more than a 964 with a kit you order and have built for you . Not worth half the buy in IMO. I have driven some EFI converted turbo 3.6's putting down 560 hp to the wheels that I can assure you would easily outperform and offer a similar experience for hundreds of thousands less.
I think that the fuss about Singer is made more by people who doesn't own one and never sat in one (leave alone, drove one!). The fact they have a 2.5yrs waiting list kind of tells you that there is quite a bit of people who think it's worth every single penny it costs!
As the old saying goes, to each its own...I'm definitely happy with mine, but far from thinking it's the best thing that ever graced this world!
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SECRET (09-17-2021)
#50
Racer
Thread Starter
As stated above, the other benefit is the price appreciation.
We can debate whether the cost is "worth it" all day and night. It's really like art - Singer has achieved that rare, obscure, hard to define status that classifies their work as art. It's no different with other art forms: if you look at abstract art for example, you can see how one could produce a similar looking piece at a fraction of the price. But that will never diminish the value of the original. So when you say that other tuners can take a 964 and do the same thing Singer does, possibly better and at a lower cost, and that Singer wasn't the first to 'reimagine' 964s, I can see that point of view -- it's probably all true. But, in 50 years, I bet the Singer will be worth multiples of what it cost today, whereas the other reimagined 964 will just be a "non-stock" tuner car that will sell for less than a stock 964.
They trade hands on average at a %30 premium from original price.
#51
Racer
Originally Posted by Bloose993TT
Agreed but pretty sure a Singer will walk a RS on and off the track.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ned-by-singer/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ned-by-singer/
I won't name names for political reasons. This year in AZ at Goodings Auction I spent over an hour talking to one of the top tuners in America, maybe the world. He has done numerous track tests with the singers. They all need a little tweaking to take full advantage of the extra hp. The set ups need adjustment and the Ride height is way too high. They have too much tire and the cars are not that lite. HP figures are under 400.
My RS is 2,500 pounds bone stock. Gamroth Dyno sheet 280 hp. Bone stock. Add a proper set up and it's not hard to see why the car would outperform a Singer out of the box on track.
We talked about taking a worn out 964 RS and doing a light Singer style resto on it. Few little interior/suspension mods, Rothsport 4.0....Mint Green of course. Ha. What a car that would be. I hope he does it. It would be the ultimate pedigreed Singer and sell for a $100 grand less. Hmmmm.... I would wait 2 years for that. Sign me up.
#52
Banned
A lot of unfair and misinformed opinions here. Singer has never been about value for the money. It is a bespoke car created for each individual buyer. The point has never been about achieving a certain performance level for the money; it is also irrelevant if that performance potential can be achieved by the shade tree mechanic at home by bolting on parts.
I don't recall anywhere where Singer stated they were the fastest car in a track competition, or they were the best car. They create a product that, like it or not, is in high demand right now.
Hey, opinions are free, but the vast majority of people chiming in are not Singer buyers, and will probably never be, so what does it matter?
I don't recall anywhere where Singer stated they were the fastest car in a track competition, or they were the best car. They create a product that, like it or not, is in high demand right now.
Hey, opinions are free, but the vast majority of people chiming in are not Singer buyers, and will probably never be, so what does it matter?
#53
Three Wheelin'
Does anyone else smells a trackday battle?!
Max u just hand the keys of the Singer and the 64 to Manu as an impartial driver?
I don’t care it’s pointless I want to see this
Wunderluftgekhült!
Max u just hand the keys of the Singer and the 64 to Manu as an impartial driver?
I don’t care it’s pointless I want to see this
Wunderluftgekhült!
#54
Racer
Originally Posted by Catorce
A lot of unfair and misinformed opinions here. Singer has never been about value for the money. It is a bespoke car created for each individual buyer. The point has never been about achieving a certain performance level for the money; it is also irrelevant if that performance potential can be achieved by the shade tree mechanic at home by bolting on parts.
I don't recall anywhere where Singer stated they were the fastest car in a track competition, or they were the best car. They create a product that, like it or not, is in high demand right now.
Hey, opinions are free, but the vast majority of people chiming in are not Singer buyers, and will probably never be, so what does it matter?
I don't recall anywhere where Singer stated they were the fastest car in a track competition, or they were the best car. They create a product that, like it or not, is in high demand right now.
Hey, opinions are free, but the vast majority of people chiming in are not Singer buyers, and will probably never be, so what does it matter?
I wish the OP good luck. I know of a perfect donor car. It is accident free and $60k. Keep us posted on what you decide. I would vote for Mint Green exterior. Dark really dark brown interior with orange accents. 3.9 liter motor, brake upgrade, K W 's for street use. ( I love mine ). Something a little stiffer if you are going to track it. And a sunroof. I love my Sunroof on a brisk AZ morning drive.
Keep us posted on what Spec you decide. I would also be interested in the actual wait time. I have heard as much as 3 years.
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SECRET (09-17-2021)
#55
Banned
I was approached by Singer to supply them with my repro 964 cases, which are not yet done. I got a chance to go to Ed Pink and see their motors being built and talk to their people. I have no skin in this game; Singer is not a customer of mine, but I was impressed with the product nevertheless. To call it a kit car is really doing it a disservice.
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SECRET (09-17-2021)
#56
No offense to anyone here, but don't listen to these guys! If you can afford a Singer then get a damn Singer!
It's not about horsepower or who can run the fastest lap... these things are pretty much perfection from top to bottom, inside to out -- and if you have the means then you have to do it IMO. I'll be there in a few years.
It's not about horsepower or who can run the fastest lap... these things are pretty much perfection from top to bottom, inside to out -- and if you have the means then you have to do it IMO. I'll be there in a few years.
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SECRET (09-17-2021)
#58
Rennlist Member
Interesting how this relatively benign - and hugely helpful - group of Porsche 964 folks have become so passionate with the Singer vs. RUF vs. RS vs. Stock vs. Outlaw discussion. I've always enjoyed the lack of "snark" on this forum when compared to other, similar, Audi forums that I follow (when you have an Audi... you need all the help you can get!). So, by all means... keep up the lively discussion, the very helpful opinions and factual commentary supported by years of experience.
... now get off my lawn!
... now get off my lawn!
#59
Three Wheelin'
If your going to sh*t on Singer. Sh*t on their watch. https://www.ablogtowatch.com/singer-track-1-watch/
The cars are quite fantastic and I could only dream to get behind the wheel of one of them. That being said, I would still prefer a mint RS and the spare change.
The cars are quite fantastic and I could only dream to get behind the wheel of one of them. That being said, I would still prefer a mint RS and the spare change.
#60
Rennlist Member
I think that the fuss about Singer is made more by people who doesn't own one and never sat in one (leave alone, drove one!). The fact they have a 2.5yrs waiting list kind of tells you that there is quite a bit of people who think it's worth every single penny it costs!
As the old saying goes, to each its own...I'm definitely happy with mine, but far from thinking it's the best thing that ever graced this world!
We are all allowed our opinions after all it is the internet LOL. Mine are well noted and based on an extensive manufacturing background and first hand understanding of what it takes to restore or build a car like this. I can go on and on about the projects I or close friends have been involved with, awards won for excellence in craftsmanship, articles published about the cars and so much more. No doubt that looking at a Singer without attaching a price to it is impressive and to the layman it is outstanding. I am not as swayed as the average Joe and can point out flaws in even the best of builds. However once you start talking the money charged vs product delivered it alludes me. Which only makes it harder to justify chopping up a great car to build one. There are so few of these and soon there will be less which is IMO a crime.
We are talking production vehicle pricing for a modified car nothing more. Modifying an existing platform to a catalog of options makes it in my eyes a very nice kit car. The 964 is an already great platform and claiming it is superior because they add big reds, 993 steering rack and some other goodies many of us have done to these cars long before SInger came along is what bothers me. If they manufactured their own brakes or steering racks, built their own tubs etc than maybe, but these are simple mods they charge a small fortune for. No doubt the engine is in a category all by itself and is worth spending up for (assuming you have the 4.0L), but the build in my eyes isn't half as impressive as builds I see all the time which are specifically tailored to the individuals tastes and not limited to a catalog of options but ones imagination.
A lot of unfair and misinformed opinions here. Singer has never been about value for the money. It is a bespoke car created for each individual buyer. The point has never been about achieving a certain performance level for the money; it is also irrelevant if that performance potential can be achieved by the shade tree mechanic at home by bolting on parts.
Who is to say if a Singer will be worth more in years to come or be looked at as some of the outlandishly overpriced builds of yesteryear which now are looked at as abominations.
Last edited by cobalt; 04-11-2018 at 07:25 PM.