993 and 964 video...
01-15-2018, 01:55 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thanks for sharing. Great review.
01-15-2018, 10:45 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Great Vid jack, enjoy your channel and thanks for all the work into putting the videos together.
Do you think if you had a stock 964 C2, it would be a better comparison between the 2 cars?
Do you think if you had a stock 964 C2, it would be a better comparison between the 2 cars?
01-15-2018, 10:51 PM
#5
Banned
Great review! I drove a 993 C2 yesterday for the first time and had similar opinions comparing my 964 to the 993. The 993 did have a much stiffer brake pedal and while the steering was much lighter than the 964 the steering felt a tad bit sharper than my c2.
01-16-2018, 07:09 AM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks for the kind comments guys... and yes, a 964 C2 would have made for a better comparison.. but as this is a hobby I kind of have to make do with what is available at the time!
01-16-2018, 10:04 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Interesting video and comments. Would be nice if both were C2's or C4's and similar in miles and condition. I agree with some of what you said. Although there are a lot of differences that could make one seem one way over the other. 18 Vs 16" wheels makes a huge difference in overall ride and feel not to mention steering. Suspension setup can make a huge difference and when it comes to the engine how it was rebuilt and how much break in it has had since. The Vram does it give a bit of punch in the midrange but overall power curve is quite similar.
I am curious what you meant by the 964 having traction control? Were you referring to the AWD vs RWD?
Always enjoy yours and Franks videos, keep them coming.
I am curious what you meant by the 964 having traction control? Were you referring to the AWD vs RWD?
Always enjoy yours and Franks videos, keep them coming.
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01-16-2018, 11:06 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Interesting video and comments. Would be nice if both were C2's or C4's and similar in miles and condition. I agree with some of what you said. Although there are a lot of differences that could make one seem one way over the other. 18 Vs 16" wheels makes a huge difference in overall ride and feel not to mention steering. Suspension setup can make a huge difference and when it comes to the engine how it was rebuilt and how much break in it has had since. The Vram does it give a bit of punch in the midrange but overall power curve is quite similar.
I am curious what you meant by the 964 having traction control? Were you referring to the AWD vs RWD?
Always enjoy yours and Franks videos, keep them coming.
I am curious what you meant by the 964 having traction control? Were you referring to the AWD vs RWD?
Always enjoy yours and Franks videos, keep them coming.
01-16-2018, 01:32 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Great video. Having owned a 964 C4, a 964 C2 and a 993 C2, I also prefer the 993. Because of the multi-link suspension, and added traction it gives in the rear, Porsche was able to improve front-end grip and you can really feel it in turn-in. The 993 is more lively and the added power is nice. The 964 is louder and lumpier, which can be mistaken for more speed - I guess that's the raw feeling you mention in the video.
Stock for stock, they both have a few issues. 964 has far too much understeer in stock config. The 993 is a bit too soft. Both can be fixed with mods, but in the end, if you compare both with mods, the 993 is still better drive. My mod'd 964 handled well on smooth roads but had a tendency to be harsh on regular, rutted, streets. It also had a tendency to spin once I'd dialed the understeer out. My mod'd 993 handles real-world roads fantastically while being secure enough to push the limits without the rear-end swapping the front - very balanced handling which equals great fun. The reduction in NVH is also nice and reduces fatigue on longer drives.
Both great cars, but the fact is the 993 is the most highly evolved of the original 'formula' and it shows when driving.
Stock for stock, they both have a few issues. 964 has far too much understeer in stock config. The 993 is a bit too soft. Both can be fixed with mods, but in the end, if you compare both with mods, the 993 is still better drive. My mod'd 964 handled well on smooth roads but had a tendency to be harsh on regular, rutted, streets. It also had a tendency to spin once I'd dialed the understeer out. My mod'd 993 handles real-world roads fantastically while being secure enough to push the limits without the rear-end swapping the front - very balanced handling which equals great fun. The reduction in NVH is also nice and reduces fatigue on longer drives.
Both great cars, but the fact is the 993 is the most highly evolved of the original 'formula' and it shows when driving.
01-16-2018, 02:52 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Great video. Having owned a 964 C4, a 964 C2 and a 993 C2, I also prefer the 993. Because of the multi-link suspension, and added traction it gives in the rear, Porsche was able to improve front-end grip and you can really feel it in turn-in. The 993 is more lively and the added power is nice. The 964 is louder and lumpier, which can be mistaken for more speed - I guess that's the raw feeling you mention in the video.
Stock for stock, they both have a few issues. 964 has far too much understeer in stock config. The 993 is a bit too soft. Both can be fixed with mods, but in the end, if you compare both with mods, the 993 is still better drive. My mod'd 964 handled well on smooth roads but had a tendency to be harsh on regular, rutted, streets. It also had a tendency to spin once I'd dialed the understeer out. My mod'd 993 handles real-world roads fantastically while being secure enough to push the limits without the rear-end swapping the front - very balanced handling which equals great fun. The reduction in NVH is also nice and reduces fatigue on longer drives.
Both great cars, but the fact is the 993 is the most highly evolved of the original 'formula' and it shows when driving.
Stock for stock, they both have a few issues. 964 has far too much understeer in stock config. The 993 is a bit too soft. Both can be fixed with mods, but in the end, if you compare both with mods, the 993 is still better drive. My mod'd 964 handled well on smooth roads but had a tendency to be harsh on regular, rutted, streets. It also had a tendency to spin once I'd dialed the understeer out. My mod'd 993 handles real-world roads fantastically while being secure enough to push the limits without the rear-end swapping the front - very balanced handling which equals great fun. The reduction in NVH is also nice and reduces fatigue on longer drives.
Both great cars, but the fact is the 993 is the most highly evolved of the original 'formula' and it shows when driving.
I would be interested in seeing how you have your 964 setup. What you describe should not be the case. The two cars when well setup are quite similar in overall handling abilities. How they communicate is a little different but nothing like my 964 vs my 981 BGTS. To me they are too similar to own both and I prefer the trailing arm feel of the 964 over the kinematic rear feeling which reminds me a lot of my 928GTS. The 993 does not carry the heritage and feel of the earlier air-cooled 911's by the simple change of the rear end. So for me the 964 setup is my preferred ride.
So although I feel the 964 is better and you the 993, we agree they are both great rides. I think this video and commentary is a great example of how we all seem to have a passion for these cars but are swayed to one or the other for different and sometimes opposite reasons.
01-16-2018, 03:08 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Wasn't long before subjective comments are laid down as fact.
I would be interested in seeing how you have your 964 setup. What you describe should not be the case. The two cars when well setup are quite similar in overall handling abilities. How they communicate is a little different but nothing like my 964 vs my 981 BGTS. To me they are too similar to own both and I prefer the trailing arm feel of the 964 over the kinematic rear feeling which reminds me a lot of my 928GTS. The 993 does not carry the heritage and feel of the earlier air-cooled 911's by the simple change of the rear end. So for me the 964 setup is my preferred ride.
So although I feel the 964 is better and you the 993, we agree they are both great rides. I think this video and commentary is a great example of how we all seem to have a passion for these cars but are swayed to one or the other for different and sometimes opposite reasons.
I would be interested in seeing how you have your 964 setup. What you describe should not be the case. The two cars when well setup are quite similar in overall handling abilities. How they communicate is a little different but nothing like my 964 vs my 981 BGTS. To me they are too similar to own both and I prefer the trailing arm feel of the 964 over the kinematic rear feeling which reminds me a lot of my 928GTS. The 993 does not carry the heritage and feel of the earlier air-cooled 911's by the simple change of the rear end. So for me the 964 setup is my preferred ride.
So although I feel the 964 is better and you the 993, we agree they are both great rides. I think this video and commentary is a great example of how we all seem to have a passion for these cars but are swayed to one or the other for different and sometimes opposite reasons.
The 964 was setup with H&R springs, adjustable sways and drop links, aggressive alignment, upsized front wheels for a bit more of a contact patch. It was an RSA so a bit more lively than a C2 out of the box. Shocks were stock, but had very few miles, so not yet worn. LSD was fresh as well. Engine had an ECU tune and a drilled airbox. Setup was done by Fordahl Motorsports and they knew what they were doing.
993 has solid tie-rods, RS bushings everywhere, PSS10, aggressive alignment including minimal KT, wider front wheels and tires, and a few other mods that aren’t relevant to handling.
The rear suspension is quite different between the cars and the 993 is much more sensitive to setup (fact). Its hard to get it right and was much more frustrating to dial it in than my 964, but once I had it, the car became sublimely good - providing handling capabilities and communication I never felt in my 964 (opinion). In real world conditions on lumpy pavement, the 964 rear end doesn’t seem to manage as well as the 993 (also opinion). As a result I have more confidence when driving the 993 and find it to be both more compliant and more forgiving. This can been as a plus or a minus I suppose. For me, at this point in my life, I see it as a plus.
Also, the steering geo changed in the 993 (fact) and to my hands it feels crisper and like it has more bite (opinion).
01-16-2018, 04:23 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Ok so IMO the H&R springs with stock shocks is something I would never recommend. I found the shocks and spring combination made the car uncomfortable to drive. I have custom valved Bilsteins with 2.5" Hypercoil springs most everything else you mentioned and then some. In either case how the suspension geometry is setup makes all the difference. Some people like to setup 0 degree toe in the front which can make the front end seem a bit twitchy. I have actually setup 964 C2's that you cannot get to spin on a skid pad at all depending on how you dial them in. Sometimes little changes can make significant changes. Don't forget you are also comparing a manual rack (different than 964 power rack) vs a 993 which is different as well. Adding the steering rack brace and upgrading the tie rods on a 964 can make a huge difference.
I understand your perspective. I have been driving these cars for so long that to me I am confident behind the wheel of either. I do find that the 964 is less compliant in the rear but that is what makes it fun IMO. No doubt if the 964 wasn't a decent base setup Singer wouldn't be chopping up all of these wonderful cars to make their idea of the ultimate 911.
I understand your perspective. I have been driving these cars for so long that to me I am confident behind the wheel of either. I do find that the 964 is less compliant in the rear but that is what makes it fun IMO. No doubt if the 964 wasn't a decent base setup Singer wouldn't be chopping up all of these wonderful cars to make their idea of the ultimate 911.