kos11-12

Hi guys,
I am planing to build a performance engine next year, and gathering some info to see witch way to go and build a useful performance road engine.
I will be very interested to hear from everyone who has done dino runs, their torque figures, (FT/LBS or NM), for engines with standard cams 3.6 or 3.8 , remapped with a chip or ECU.
I will start with mine,
264 FT/LBS @ 4900 rpm; C4, remapped with aftermarket ECU, bigger capacity injectors, cup and bypass.
Thanks for your input !

koenig_roland

Hi Kos,
the M64 engine theme is quite "hot" in my porsche buddy group.
Last year, one friend got a M64 in his G-series. First attempt was as 3.6 with happy cams (~3.Xmm), bigger valves, optimized intake, header and some other stuff... This engine was great, but - in his opinion - not that streetable anymore because of the hot cams.. (i found it great, despite the rought idle). So he went back to the workshop and they build him a 3.8 with softer cams (2.1mm), as he asked them for.... This is now good, and has better torque, but it`s a little bit boring, compared to the old engine...
An other guy from my "group" is in the process to build a 4.x M64 for this 964. He works with Edelweiss from Essen in germany. Dirk - and i guess he was also in involved in the 964 turbo projekt from the netherlands, seems to trade just with serious stuff. The pistions and cylinders are superb, the heads will be the result of a huge effort in optimization, special cams, new muffler to the existing headers...

Others have just ordered an engine, that`s near to the build in my blue car (a little bit of head-work, headers, 2.1mm cams, increased compression, streamlining the case, LMF, optimizing the intake with the RS manifold adapters) and the result is always good. Not super powerful, but a lot more lively than a stock engine (i can compare this with my bone stock convertible engine with a fresh rebuild), streetable, robust and quite reasonable....

What i will say is: the selection of the right cam decides a lot, how the engine will work and which character the engine has... I would ask several workshops for a complete engine concept (adapted to your expectations) and compare the different offers afterwise....

One opinion - even if you have not asked about it - about the displacement: i would stick to 3.6 or jump to something in the 4.x range - if money does not absolutely matter. I think, 3.8 is not worth the effort and the price for the expectable result...

Best regards

Thilo

Gus

I think it would be interesting to see dyno results for 3.6 engines and 3.8 engines. If you have dumped your engine just post HP, torque and mods done. This would allow us to compare 3.6 to 3.8 and get an idea of what is gained with mods. I’ll go find my dyno results and post results shortly.

cobalt

Here is the problem with this. I have run my car on two dynos. One was a Dynojet the other a mustang.

Pretty much stock engine with custom chip 100 cell cat and magnaflow muffler. On the dynojet it showed 238 rwtq calculate at crank by using 15% putting it at 281 at the crank on the mustang it showed 197 rwtq calculate torque by using 18% putting it at 241at the crank. Same engine and conditions. The mustang is normally conservative. Although when compared to a healthy 993 Vram engine you can see they are quite close. (sorry for the bad pic) Mine is the solid line the vram is the dotted. I can say we tested numerous Porsche's on this dyno and all of them seemed conservatively low. Including GT3RS's and others. PS ignore the AFR's they weren't being tested.

I have used my solo and the car is sound with 0-60 in roughly 5.0 seconds with a couple of runs around 4.8 and a couple around 5.2 depending on launch

Dynos are great for baseline and modification analysis but trying to compare results from one dyno to the next can be more misleading than worthwhile. I do know that on the dynojet my 928GTS showed to be perfect stock condition and base line for my C2 the same. I am guessing the dynojet is closer to accurate but everything I have learned about dynos say the mustang is the best to use.

The mustang I know is harder for the operator to play with and the others are dependent on the operator who can make the numbers read what they want to a degree.





If you look at the vram numbers and factor 18% loss that would put this engine as way underpowered which I know is not the case so I am guessing my numbers are a bit low.

I will try to locate the dynojet charts but the curves are nearly identical just higher on the chart.

Gus

I understand that using different DYNO sources can result in a significant variable between each htat is hard to take into account. I have used the same dyno ever since I first got my car. I did the first dyno run as a total stock 964 without any changes:
*** For the first DYNO run numbers were - Max Torque 222 at 5150 RPM, Max HP 242 at 6300 RPM.
Over the years the engine and car have been modified and after each major engine change I did another DYNO pull. I must say that the most significant single gain was after I switched from the stock exhaust to headers and a free flow exhaust system, resulting in a 18 HP increase.
Todate: the last DYNO pull was the Spring of last year.
*** Last DYNO numbers are - Max Torque 273 at 4400 RPM ( 254 at 3500 ), Max HP 296 at 6600 RPM.
*** Note: The mods at this time are full Varioram conversion, ECU, headers with limited muffler, full flow through intake (no door or wire), No distributor - coil packs, free flow intake filter, and No motor driven Power Steering (electrical). All have been external modifications -
Over the years I have seen a gradual increase after each major modification until I have reached this point. I have just rebuilt my engine making several changes - GT# Oil pump, 993 pistons, valves and second oil filter , Corolla rods, and a very minor port polish job and minor windage cuts. I am also changing to a different ECU which will allow for better and truer tuning of MAPS. Will post dyno results after all is back together.

kos11-12

cobalt

I wish my initial dyno was still available. Are those wheel numbers or crank?

HDA

That sounds like A LOT of mods! Do you have a video of the car running (I cringe every time I see a car on the dyno - please don't post those).

ramans

3.6l with DRC 993 ss CamShafts and here's the power sheet

kos11-12

Hi Ramans,
Thanks for your contribution, is it wheel power ?
cheers
k

kos11-12

Gus,
We definitely all agree that the compressor drags power? Well its never on when running on the dino , but distibutor and steering pump could well drag a bit too...
So far at 273 you are the winer ...Wth a bit of advantage from the VRM ...?

FlyingDutchman

@gus can you share more detail about your free flow intake and coil packs? Brand, where you bought it etc.

Thanks!
Arthur

ramans

At the rear wheels on my report

Gus

Ok, will try to answer questions -
Kos - All numbers are at the rear wheels -
Italian - No videos - will try to remember next time I do a dyno pull which will be in a few weeks or so. Yes, is a lot of mods but done over several years that I have owned the car. All mods have been external with out dropping engine. Just goes to show how strong the 3.6 really can be with a little tuning. OH! I forgot to say that I don't have the AC condenser or system any more.
Dutchman - By FreeFlow - i only mean that I do not have anything in the airflow path like a flap, barn door or hot wire sensor. The intake passage way is clear from the K&N filter to the manifold. The coils are Bosch 6 pack coils (running 2) which are driven by the ECU. I obtained a damaged distributor base and welded a mount to it (after cutting off distributors) and mounted the twin coil packs in the same place as the stock distributors. This way I was able to use the stock wiring to plugs. - See picture--
For some reason I can not upload pictures right now, browser is not linking to Rennlist for upload - Will post later

Gus

Ok, will try to answer questions -
Kos - All numbers are at the rear wheels -
Italian - No videos - will try to remember next time I do a dyno pull which will be in a few weeks or so. Yes, is a lot of mods but done over several years that I have owned the car. All mods have been external with out dropping engine. Just goes to show how strong the 3.6 really can be with a little tuning. OH! I forgot to say that I don't have the AC condenser or system any more.
Dutchman - By FreeFlow - i only mean that I do not have anything in the airflow path like a flap, barn door or hot wire sensor. The intake passage way is clear from the K&N filter to the manifold. The coils are Bosch 6 pack coils (running 2) which are driven by the ECU. I obtained a damaged distributor base and welded a mount to it (after cutting off distributors) and mounted the twin coil packs in the same place as the stock distributors. This way I was able to use the stock wiring to plugs. - See picture--
For some reason I can not upload pictures right now, browser is not linking to Rennlist for upload - Will post later