Singer's really ramping up production
11-11-2017, 06:06 PM
#61
Making a one off car similar to the fit and finish as the Singer is relatively easy, making a production run of cars to the same high standard is a lot more difficult to keep control of.
Don't think any racing boat builder would come close to automotive levels of detail as they are different worlds away. I don't mean any disrespect by this as even the best CF racing car builders struggle with achieving the repeatable quality required to build production luxury road cars.
If you don't spend the money making the tooling correctly every single car will require extensive hand finishing in different ways which will cost more in the long run.
CF and the word cheap usually means poor fit and finish and copious amounts of filler
Don't think any racing boat builder would come close to automotive levels of detail as they are different worlds away. I don't mean any disrespect by this as even the best CF racing car builders struggle with achieving the repeatable quality required to build production luxury road cars.
If you don't spend the money making the tooling correctly every single car will require extensive hand finishing in different ways which will cost more in the long run.
CF and the word cheap usually means poor fit and finish and copious amounts of filler
11-11-2017, 06:42 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Making a one off car similar to the fit and finish as the Singer is relatively easy, making a production run of cars to the same high standard is a lot more difficult to keep control of.
Don't think any racing boat builder would come close to automotive levels of detail as they are different worlds away. I don't mean any disrespect by this as even the best CF racing car builders struggle with achieving the repeatable quality required to build production luxury road cars.
If you don't spend the money making the tooling correctly every single car will require extensive hand finishing in different ways which will cost more in the long run.
CF and the word cheap usually means poor fit and finish and copious amounts of filler
Don't think any racing boat builder would come close to automotive levels of detail as they are different worlds away. I don't mean any disrespect by this as even the best CF racing car builders struggle with achieving the repeatable quality required to build production luxury road cars.
If you don't spend the money making the tooling correctly every single car will require extensive hand finishing in different ways which will cost more in the long run.
CF and the word cheap usually means poor fit and finish and copious amounts of filler
I do have access to some top level talent and highly knowledgable seasoned people. Once you set up the process it still requires attention to detail and a good quality control system and unified effort. I am accustomed to dealing with Class A Grade A manufacturing for the DoD, commercial, restoration and manufactured all sorts of parts for some of the most valuable vintage cars. Be it brass era, Ferrari, or vintage racing. Both one offs and production to this level. The biggest complaint I received was my parts were sometimes to perfect and better than the originals.
I have no delusions of what this would entail and the work involved with making a consistent high end product like this.
I have no issue with the singer from a product standpoint. The engineering that went into it, the engine builders they use and the high end quality of the overall product is worthy of their asking price. If they can sell cars at this level of profit all the power to them.
What I don't appreciate is them chopping up one of the few Porsche's I enjoy best at the level they have in the guise as an enthusiast. I have stated I don't find the design to my tastes but many others clearly do. I also find this "reimagine" thing to be BS. No matter how I look at it, I see it is a glorified 964 with a body kit and nothing more.
11-11-2017, 08:54 PM
#63
Cobalt my design/manufacturing experience only goes as far as one production road car, the McLaren F1, rest of my DNA is pure racing.
That experience has lead to being offered the opportunity to lead the design of the La Ferrari body structure and work on the design of the Aston Martin Valkyrie body structure. Turned down both, one by choice and other due to work commitments.
There is a also a very good chance I may end up working on the new Singer again but helping out on the production engineering side of the project. Not 100% sure as the call of F1 won't go away and the racer in me is finding it hard to ignore.
There are 1000's of people with extensive CF experience out there that think they could successfully build a CF based production road car but in reality most would make a mess of it.
History is littered with super car start up's that disappear after a year or two. I can count two of my best friends on that list who designed and engineered the Caparo T1, a low volume high performance niche car. Both are world class engineers with the right skills and experience, the car was devastatingly fast but didn't capture a big enough market even when there was no shortage of financial backing. They had a better chance of success than anyone but they failed.
What I'm trying to put across is there are plenty of people that have the experience of building exceptional one off cars to very high standards that say they could do the extremely specialist job Singer are doing or at a stretch a better job if given the money. In reality there are only a handful of people that could, maybe you are one of them but its highly unlikely you are and I don't mean any disrespect by that statement.
Ignoring the fact Singer chop up our beloved 964 cars (you and I are both guilty of the same crime) I think as a company they should be applauded for their vision, achievements and longevity. They've taken a relatively unloved 911 shape and with some imagineering or BS if you like turned it into one of the most desirable air cooled cars money can buy. From the picture of all the body shells it would appear those with the money would agree too.
Being honest here, if I had the money like you a Singer would't be my first choice but I am a Singer fan as I've experienced first hand how hard it is to do what they are doing so have only the utmost respect for everyone working at Singer
The new Singer with its 4 valve engine will push the desirability and price stakes beyond what most could ever have imagined a few years ago. Again kudos to the company for taking such a big risk in not being satisfied with standing still.
If you are reading this and work at Singer then
thank you for making such a cool car and I can't wait to see what the next chapter is in your amazing story.
That experience has lead to being offered the opportunity to lead the design of the La Ferrari body structure and work on the design of the Aston Martin Valkyrie body structure. Turned down both, one by choice and other due to work commitments.
There is a also a very good chance I may end up working on the new Singer again but helping out on the production engineering side of the project. Not 100% sure as the call of F1 won't go away and the racer in me is finding it hard to ignore.
There are 1000's of people with extensive CF experience out there that think they could successfully build a CF based production road car but in reality most would make a mess of it.
History is littered with super car start up's that disappear after a year or two. I can count two of my best friends on that list who designed and engineered the Caparo T1, a low volume high performance niche car. Both are world class engineers with the right skills and experience, the car was devastatingly fast but didn't capture a big enough market even when there was no shortage of financial backing. They had a better chance of success than anyone but they failed.
What I'm trying to put across is there are plenty of people that have the experience of building exceptional one off cars to very high standards that say they could do the extremely specialist job Singer are doing or at a stretch a better job if given the money. In reality there are only a handful of people that could, maybe you are one of them but its highly unlikely you are and I don't mean any disrespect by that statement.
Ignoring the fact Singer chop up our beloved 964 cars (you and I are both guilty of the same crime) I think as a company they should be applauded for their vision, achievements and longevity. They've taken a relatively unloved 911 shape and with some imagineering or BS if you like turned it into one of the most desirable air cooled cars money can buy. From the picture of all the body shells it would appear those with the money would agree too.
Being honest here, if I had the money like you a Singer would't be my first choice but I am a Singer fan as I've experienced first hand how hard it is to do what they are doing so have only the utmost respect for everyone working at Singer
The new Singer with its 4 valve engine will push the desirability and price stakes beyond what most could ever have imagined a few years ago. Again kudos to the company for taking such a big risk in not being satisfied with standing still.
If you are reading this and work at Singer then
thank you for making such a cool car and I can't wait to see what the next chapter is in your amazing story.
11-11-2017, 11:01 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
I realize that if you're building a $500k car you'd want to start with something with zero defects. So they pay top dollar for the top range of cars and effectively cut them up.
That's where the rub is. I would have no issue if they were repurposing cars that were worn out and were being resurrected. In fact that would be an admirable approach. There is very little left that gets used, even off a good car. What we see is the best survivors being cannibalized. No matter what the end product, it is still a loss, and moves more quality cars out of enthusiasts reach.
Funny thing is the car I had stolen and stripped was more complete than a singer shell, yet the singer keeps a clean original title and mine is "rebuilt"..... Hmmmm....
That's where the rub is. I would have no issue if they were repurposing cars that were worn out and were being resurrected. In fact that would be an admirable approach. There is very little left that gets used, even off a good car. What we see is the best survivors being cannibalized. No matter what the end product, it is still a loss, and moves more quality cars out of enthusiasts reach.
Funny thing is the car I had stolen and stripped was more complete than a singer shell, yet the singer keeps a clean original title and mine is "rebuilt"..... Hmmmm....
11-11-2017, 11:02 PM
#65
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I do love the Singer concept, and full marks to the founders who have pushed ahead with their vision. The irony is that through all of their success, I predict they will make the remaining stock of 964's almost a sought after as their own creation. I love the looks of my car (although I would love a Singer in the garage as well!), and really don't want another 911 variant. By cutting up 964's, they are also helping push up the value of my own 964. Virtuous circle. :-)
11-12-2017, 09:06 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
I applaud your work and I won't argue with what you are saying regarding building a full crashworthy car out of CF. I know these are two very different animals. I do know what it takes to build a car like the singer. There are two sides in play here and IMO I prefer one off creations (an enthusiasts approach) but we all know once the tooling is made and procedures established production on a level Singer has reached is actually easier and more cost effective than building each individually.
No doubt I am as guilty as the next for cutting up a 964 but mine was a car that was already in bad disrepair. I made every effort to resurrect it first but even at todays inflated prices it wasn't worth it. No doubt if I did and sold it it would have ended up as a singer after all my efforts. Mine is also a tribute to the 964 not a reimagined sudo long nose that eliminates all of what IMO makes the 964 the perfect air cooled 911. I have been looking for a candidate to build a true 3.8RS clone for the street vs my track car but I can't allow myself to cut up a perfectly good 964 under any conditions. I have knowledge of some turbo bodies with salvage titles and although I was hoping for a clean non damaged tub I might have little choice at the rate 964's are being chopped up. I also have a line on a heavily tracked 964 that has a 3.8 build already which might be the way to go but my starting point in each case will be $30k more than I was able to do just 3 years prior.
I realize that if you're building a $500k car you'd want to start with something with zero defects. So they pay top dollar for the top range of cars and effectively cut them up.
That's where the rub is. I would have no issue if they were repurposing cars that were worn out and were being resurrected. In fact that would be an admirable approach. There is very little left that gets used, even off a good car. What we see is the best survivors being cannibalized. No matter what the end product, it is still a loss, and moves more quality cars out of enthusiasts reach.
Funny thing is the car I had stolen and stripped was more complete than a singer shell, yet the singer keeps a clean original title and mine is "rebuilt"..... Hmmmm....
That's where the rub is. I would have no issue if they were repurposing cars that were worn out and were being resurrected. In fact that would be an admirable approach. There is very little left that gets used, even off a good car. What we see is the best survivors being cannibalized. No matter what the end product, it is still a loss, and moves more quality cars out of enthusiasts reach.
Funny thing is the car I had stolen and stripped was more complete than a singer shell, yet the singer keeps a clean original title and mine is "rebuilt"..... Hmmmm....
I couldn't agree more.
11-12-2017, 09:49 AM
#67
Addict
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I realize that if you're building a $500k car you'd want to start with something with zero defects. So they pay top dollar for the top range of cars and effectively cut them up.
That's where the rub is. I would have no issue if they were repurposing cars that were worn out and were being resurrected. In fact that would be an admirable approach. There is very little left that gets used, even off a good car. What we see is the best survivors being cannibalized. No matter what the end product, it is still a loss, and moves more quality cars out of enthusiasts reach.
Funny thing is the car I had stolen and stripped was more complete than a singer shell, yet the singer keeps a clean original title and mine is "rebuilt"..... Hmmmm....
That's where the rub is. I would have no issue if they were repurposing cars that were worn out and were being resurrected. In fact that would be an admirable approach. There is very little left that gets used, even off a good car. What we see is the best survivors being cannibalized. No matter what the end product, it is still a loss, and moves more quality cars out of enthusiasts reach.
Funny thing is the car I had stolen and stripped was more complete than a singer shell, yet the singer keeps a clean original title and mine is "rebuilt"..... Hmmmm....
11-12-2017, 04:20 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
According to this 2016 article, the 8yo company had only delivered 40 cars (that's less than 6 cars per year). So maybe they've delivered another 8 cars since the article was written.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/2/10...ion-test-drive
So that yard full of stripped tubs represents another 8-9yrs of production? Maybe they've picked up efficiencies, so 4yrs of production?
That's a lot of dollars in work-in-process that is going to sit for years.
How much money does a person put down when commissioning a build?
It would suck if the economy turned and/or trends change and all those poor 964s got taken off the road and stripped for nothing.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/2/10...ion-test-drive
So that yard full of stripped tubs represents another 8-9yrs of production? Maybe they've picked up efficiencies, so 4yrs of production?
That's a lot of dollars in work-in-process that is going to sit for years.
How much money does a person put down when commissioning a build?
It would suck if the economy turned and/or trends change and all those poor 964s got taken off the road and stripped for nothing.
11-12-2017, 11:49 PM
#69
GT3 player par excellence
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^ article is not correct
11-12-2017, 11:58 PM
#70
Nordschleife Master
Are the numbers quoted in the article higher or lower than reality?
EDIT: I went to their website and counted the cars in their high res gallery. 58 cars. In 9 years. So a little over 6 cars per year.
EDIT: I went to their website and counted the cars in their high res gallery. 58 cars. In 9 years. So a little over 6 cars per year.
Last edited by Vandit; 11-13-2017 at 01:03 AM.
11-21-2017, 03:34 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
11-21-2017, 04:30 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Does anyone know if Singer sells the original Porsche parts at all? I can only imagine how many stock parts go through their hands. Or maybe they just deal with dismantlers in exchange for 964 chassis that come in?
11-21-2017, 05:43 PM
#74
Drifting
Not sure if they still do but I believe at one time, most if not all the take off parts were being sold by Autobahn Parts in El Cajon, CA
11-21-2017, 06:35 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
A kid from L.A. on Pelican used to sell the parts, lol.
The story I heard back in 2012-13 from a pretty reliable source was that Singer was buying every sub $20k 964 in the country, sight unseen. These stock pile photos seem to support that.
The story I heard back in 2012-13 from a pretty reliable source was that Singer was buying every sub $20k 964 in the country, sight unseen. These stock pile photos seem to support that.