canuck964

Now with the Williams partnership can someone please explain to me why they still have to sacrifice a 964 tub?

Isn't Williams a manufacturer capable of issuing a VIN?

n1ne11

Hi Canuck,

I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.

canuck964

Great points.

Seems to me with this Williams version there is nothing in common with a 964 except for the tub.

But I see your point that Porsche would never licence the Porsche name.

HiWind

so on the topic of the engine .. it has 4 valves so that means the heads must be water cooled right?
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.

drbooba1

Not in the interest of denigration in any way but could you or someone elaborate on this issue. I think those of us who have attempted to make real strides of H.P. in N.A. engines have a vested interest in the Air Cooled engine and would like to understand the challenges not the marketing or ego's.
Singers race is not won at this point although we commend the effort and passion.

regards

cobalt

The issue is an emissions issue. If you build a new tub it will need to be crash tested and built to Current DOT and emissions regulations. Since they are not selling these as new cars they can get away with just about anything. Most states don't sniff test cars older than 1995 or anything pre OBDII. As the owner you are responsible what was done to your car, singer is just reimagining it for you.

The Singer is a 964 with a lot of add on parts. It uses the same suspension points, tub and most of what makes a 964 a 911. It is lightened with upgraded suspension and fancy interior. the engine is based on the 3.6 used in the 964. Internals are changed and it is extensively reworked but it is all 964 at the end of the day. Even a 993 is very similar in some respects to the 964 and has upgraded components. The things that make it most different are the rear suspension and body panels but under the skin they are quite similar.

Bob never mentioned anything about water jackets. The engine was intended to be a high output 4 valve air/oil cooled engine. The question is how do you vent all the heat associated with these engines? Don't forget Porsche always built everything to the conservative side this is a bit high stung and only time will tell.

n1ne11

Didn't the 959 have watercooled heads?

cobalt

yes but this is not based off the 959

n1ne11

Of course it is not, by citing the 959 I meant that it could be a not too tricky thing to achieve as it has already been done 30 years ago on aircooled flat6s. Somehow I remember having read things about flat6s in the 80ies and 4 valve heads, and it was like totally unusable in the way that things started to melt only after couple minutes of idling. Something like that, but I guess it is not relevant as I can't find the source again. I would speculate that the solution Williams came up with might be everything but "simple", from an engineering point of view. Otherwise they would have found a solution back then too.

gouyou

A lot of progress has been made in terms of engineering and materials over 30 years. Even if you aren't accounting for that, the Singer/Williams engine has a different objective and price point compared to what Porsche was developing in the 80s. It's a highly specialized, limited production, price not a factor engine vs. something that was supposed to be applicable down the line in a mass market model.

cobalt

The 959 is a very different animal. There have been 962 engines fit to a 964 but the plumbing and work involved is prohibitive. Adding water cooled anything to a 964 is a lot of work. Although These engines can handle the power but no doubt the compression levels might need to be adjusted. My turbo is seeing 450bhp/ 460 tq air cooled I have seen some pump out as much as 600bhp with a stand alone ignition. Going with a 4 valve head is another story no doubt and I know Bob has been working on one but haven't talked to him about the progress recently. He has built some very interesting axles using proprietary alloys and a CF fuel cell using F1 scavenge pickup design for the 964/993 application. Incredible work I wish I could share.

They obviously have completed some testing and it being a 4 liter makes a difference in the power they can generate but I am equally interested in how they plan to deal with the added heat. Although that might be part of the intake design and enlarged jet style fan.

Railmaster.

Not just that! They need the 964 tub if they want to put a Porsche badge on the hood!

Railmaster.

If they did it would be illegal for them to use the Porsche brand name and badge on the bonnet!

Does anybody know what the documents say about the Singer Porsche's., Hav they kept the original model year?

CAlexio

Cobalt already gave a great explanation above, so I'll just add that making parts like doors which fit, requires a lot of engineering work. Using the 964 tub (and doors), provides a lot of built-in savings, in addition to all the homologation, registration headaches which Cobalt references.

Captain Ahab Jr.

don't forget about computational fluid dynamic modelling to simulate cooling distribution through out the heads, a lot has moved on over the last 30 years