Singer/Williams Engineering Engine Development
03-07-2018, 09:57 AM
#121
Rennlist Member
^^^ yes please. 
03-07-2018, 11:52 AM
#122
Drifting
03-07-2018, 03:30 PM
#123
Race Car
That's the thing- ruf just came along and built a proper car. What's the new Williams singer going to cost? 1mm? Once you get into the 500k plus price range...it better be on par with a maclaren f1....not that they are 1mm anymore. But come on now. Build a real car for that money. Not just a super cool retromod.
That said- they are still, even though I'm sick of them, a super cool retromod. But i would still rather own my C4 any day of the week.
That said- they are still, even though I'm sick of them, a super cool retromod. But i would still rather own my C4 any day of the week.
03-08-2018, 04:40 AM
#124
Not trying to diminish what Singer accomplished, but I would take a Ruf any day of the week over the 964 based Singer. The new SCR is so high on the want list for when I win the lottery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJPz-KjTBKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJPz-KjTBKU
03-08-2018, 08:08 AM
#125
Rennlist Member
04-02-2018, 02:56 PM
#126
Rennlist Member
One reason a 993 chassis is not used is that the forward part of the 993 chassis tub is 4 centimeters higher to raise the front of the trunk lid (same lid pressing as 964 though) and this would require replacing the front part of the tub to fit the early long hood whereas essentially no modifications are necessary in this area with the 964 chassis..
04-04-2018, 12:21 AM
#127
If you consider 5000 + US spec 964 coupes (that is all C2/C4 both tip and manual) a lot then I guess you're right but there are probably less than 2000 left in the US in good condition. No doubt the ROW 964's will be chopped up soon enough. 
. In many ways it is a compliment that the 964 was chosen to be the foundation of the singer. When you think about it a messaged 964 is being acclaimed as one of the best 911's ever. They could have chosen the 993 or the 3.2 carrera. There were more of these made than the 964 by a large margin and the 993 lovers consider the 993 to be the best air-cooled 911. It makes one think.
. In many ways it is a compliment that the 964 was chosen to be the foundation of the singer. When you think about it a messaged 964 is being acclaimed as one of the best 911's ever. They could have chosen the 993 or the 3.2 carrera. There were more of these made than the 964 by a large margin and the 993 lovers consider the 993 to be the best air-cooled 911. It makes one think.
04-04-2018, 09:52 AM
#128
Rennlist Member
964 C2/C4 NB coupes US sales = 5,100 units
964 RSA NB coupe US sales = 701 units
964 94 C4 WB coupe US sales = 267 units
993 C2/C4 NB coupes US sales = 7,900 units
993 CS/C4S WB coupes US sales = 4,079 units
Keep in mind that we are only discussing coupes here and nearly all 964 production info from Adrian to Red Book include vin numbers xxx1 to xx60 as being units produced for both US and ROW all VIN numbers. Porsche recently verified this as not being the case and all Vin Numbers begin at xx61 not xxx1. If talking US spec NB coupes only and I am not aware of them chopping up RSA's due to their high purchase price. I see that as 2800 more 993 NB coupes made than 964's or 55% more US spec 993 NB coupes than 964 NB coupes. Unlike the 993 the 964 was unwanted for many years and hundreds to thousands of them have been chopped up for parts, crashed, tracked extensively and cut up to make all sorts of back dates, RWB's and other projects leaving a far smaller % of original condition 964's of the units made vs the 993. Maybe you don't, but I consider it a large margin.
964 RSA NB coupe US sales = 701 units
964 94 C4 WB coupe US sales = 267 units
993 C2/C4 NB coupes US sales = 7,900 units
993 CS/C4S WB coupes US sales = 4,079 units
Keep in mind that we are only discussing coupes here and nearly all 964 production info from Adrian to Red Book include vin numbers xxx1 to xx60 as being units produced for both US and ROW all VIN numbers. Porsche recently verified this as not being the case and all Vin Numbers begin at xx61 not xxx1. If talking US spec NB coupes only and I am not aware of them chopping up RSA's due to their high purchase price. I see that as 2800 more 993 NB coupes made than 964's or 55% more US spec 993 NB coupes than 964 NB coupes. Unlike the 993 the 964 was unwanted for many years and hundreds to thousands of them have been chopped up for parts, crashed, tracked extensively and cut up to make all sorts of back dates, RWB's and other projects leaving a far smaller % of original condition 964's of the units made vs the 993. Maybe you don't, but I consider it a large margin.
Last edited by cobalt; 04-04-2018 at 10:08 AM.
04-04-2018, 10:05 AM
#129
Originally Posted by 911Jetta
Singer needs to step up, like Ruf did!
And I think they might have to!
Rob and his team did a remarkable job in establishing a solid international presence; but in order for them to continue to stay relevant AND put a higher price-tag on their vehicles, they would need to evolve not by re-inventing the wheel but through collaborating with manufacturers like RUF, Koenigsegg , Rimac... I can honestly see them go to the extreme of introducing one-off's for pure aesthetics through working with Versace, LV, Hermes, Bijan, Italia Independent... to stay not only alive but hip, and vibrant; and to be able to fund new creative ideas before they license their Singer Parts and sell them to non-Singer owners.
I just can't see Singer going on like this forever. Either someone will come up with a new twist and be the next "Singer" or they will run out of cars/clients. Their market, for instance, will be severely challenged if existing manufacturers such as RUF introduced "value-packaged" vehicles and did a better job in marketing their products..
The collaboration with Williams is a brilliant step, only if it's followed by Company- not Client-generated ideas.
04-04-2018, 11:16 AM
#130
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
How many years has Ruf been in business? They still haven't made their own chassis... Their first attempt was actually designed and built in Canada by Multimatic. And it looks like the latest example (SCR) is actually last years CTR that was designed and developed by Vela in Germany but with 964 bodywork? Which is not all that different from what Singer are doing with Williams?
Last edited by JasonAndreas; 04-04-2018 at 11:33 AM.
04-04-2018, 12:14 PM
#131
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
How many years has Ruf been in business? They still haven't made their own chassis... Their first attempt was actually designed and built in Canada by Multimatic. And it looks like the latest example (SCR) is actually last years CTR that was designed and developed by Vela in Germany but with 964 bodywork? Which is not all that different from what Singer are doing with Williams?
doesn't do everything in house and resources components that would require R&D and experience. RUF, however, is renounced for other components and engine engineering that can be the core for the next Singer Turbo
, which seems logical.. since air cooled turbo engines have much developed since the 90's and a modern take like-RUF's would add a different appeal to Singer vehicles.
04-04-2018, 03:31 PM
#132
Drifting
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
How many years has Ruf been in business? They still haven't made their own chassis... Their first attempt was actually designed and built in Canada by Multimatic. And it looks like the latest example (SCR) is actually last years CTR that was designed and developed by Vela in Germany but with 964 bodywork? Which is not all that different from what Singer are doing with Williams?
04-05-2018, 06:56 AM
#133
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bucks, Herts, Beds Tri-Border, UK
Posts: 1,179
Received 94 Likes
on
78 Posts
Singer vs RUF, two very different approaches to the 911 and two very different audiences - Can't make any real world comparisons. I would think the Singer is your garage and parade queen (albeit with impeccable road manners) while the RUF, is well, a RUF (the ***** out performance and deep history that even Porsche approved of).
What I'm interested in is the arrangement Williams have with Singer on this. What's in it for Williams? - can't be a new income stream. Maybe some kind of test bed/platform for them (e911 from Singer eventually?) And who's funding the development and testing costs for this? - this is not an overnight engineering project, a few years away yet me thinks.
04-05-2018, 08:00 AM
#134
Burning Brakes
