Singer/Williams Engineering Engine Development
#91
Burning Brakes
Now with the Williams partnership can someone please explain to me why they still have to sacrifice a 964 tub?
Isn't Williams a manufacturer capable of issuing a VIN?
Isn't Williams a manufacturer capable of issuing a VIN?
#92
Hi Canuck,
I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.
I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.
#93
Burning Brakes
Hi Canuck,
I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.
I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.
Seems to me with this Williams version there is nothing in common with a 964 except for the tub.
But I see your point that Porsche would never licence the Porsche name.
#94
Race Car
so on the topic of the engine .. it has 4 valves so that means the heads must be water cooled right?
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.
#95
so on the topic of the engine .. it has 4 valves so that means the heads must be water cooled right?
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.
Singers race is not won at this point although we commend the effort and passion.
regards
#96
Rennlist Member
Hi Canuck,
I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.
I guess it is still cheaper to take an old 964 chassis than to create a new one. First. Then legally speaking, I am not sure they can copy the 964's chassis and put their VIN on them as if they invented it.
Then comes the problem with homologation, chassis numbers/motor numbers, etc. I don't know exactly how it passes tests in EU for example, but I could bet in some countries it is registered as just a tuned 964, which saves Singer AND the buyer a lot of money/time. In some countries it may even be impossible to register Singer spec 964 with alternative VIN, as it would appear as new from factory, and so would have to match todays very restrictive security/emissions standards. And last, still beeing constructed with a real 911 chassis, makes it a real 911. Which is the contrary of the new Yellowbird, not really a 911 anymore. It just looks like one.
so on the topic of the engine .. it has 4 valves so that means the heads must be water cooled right?
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.
I understood the issue with the 500hp Linton car was that the 4 valves left not space for the cooling of the head.
Not that it really 'breaks' the sanctity of the aircooler and then some exceptions must be made in special cases (for this if for anything), but I imagine there mist be some water/glycol going on too.
#98
Rennlist Member
#99
Of course it is not, by citing the 959 I meant that it could be a not too tricky thing to achieve as it has already been done 30 years ago on aircooled flat6s. Somehow I remember having read things about flat6s in the 80ies and 4 valve heads, and it was like totally unusable in the way that things started to melt only after couple minutes of idling. Something like that, but I guess it is not relevant as I can't find the source again. I would speculate that the solution Williams came up with might be everything but "simple", from an engineering point of view. Otherwise they would have found a solution back then too.
Last edited by n1ne11; 11-27-2017 at 10:22 AM.
#100
Of course it is not, by citing the 959 I meant that it could be a not too tricky thing to achieve as it has already been done 30 years ago on aircooled flat6s. Somehow I remember having read things about flat6s in the 80ies and 4 valve heads, and it was like totally unusable in the way that things started to melt only after couple minutes of idling. Something like that, but I guess it is not relevant as I can't find the source again. I would speculate that the solution Williams came up with might be everything but "simple", from an engineering point of view. Otherwise they would have found a solution back then too.
#101
Rennlist Member
The 959 is a very different animal. There have been 962 engines fit to a 964 but the plumbing and work involved is prohibitive. Adding water cooled anything to a 964 is a lot of work. Although These engines can handle the power but no doubt the compression levels might need to be adjusted. My turbo is seeing 450bhp/ 460 tq air cooled I have seen some pump out as much as 600bhp with a stand alone ignition. Going with a 4 valve head is another story no doubt and I know Bob has been working on one but haven't talked to him about the progress recently. He has built some very interesting axles using proprietary alloys and a CF fuel cell using F1 scavenge pickup design for the 964/993 application. Incredible work I wish I could share.
They obviously have completed some testing and it being a 4 liter makes a difference in the power they can generate but I am equally interested in how they plan to deal with the added heat. Although that might be part of the intake design and enlarged jet style fan.
They obviously have completed some testing and it being a 4 liter makes a difference in the power they can generate but I am equally interested in how they plan to deal with the added heat. Although that might be part of the intake design and enlarged jet style fan.
#102
#103
Does anybody know what the documents say about the Singer Porsche's., Hav they kept the original model year?
#104
Race Director
Cobalt already gave a great explanation above, so I'll just add that making parts like doors which fit, requires a lot of engineering work. Using the 964 tub (and doors), provides a lot of built-in savings, in addition to all the homologation, registration headaches which Cobalt references.
#105