gejay

Hey All,

Hoping to get your honest opinion on my current 964 purchase. I won't be naming the seller's name as he was a good seller - not to throw him under the bus, but we both got in a very annoying pickle.

First of all, I made the mistake of not following through with the PPI. The seller and I were in contact with each other for 2 months. Seeing the condition of the car via pictures, videos, text messages and lots of phone calls. We had some great conversations that were not even car related. The trust just had built up. The Seller is a respected on Pelican, and deals with much higher end Porsches. I guess that still doesn't matter.

Anyways, I purchased and finally took delivery of it a week ago with little over 53K miles 89' 964 C4.

- The interior is super clean and well done.
- The engine bay is very nice.
- The interior and exterior had major detailed done with some paint correction on the wiper caul (after spending $2K additional).
- No rust
- Signs of respray but the car looks amazing after the detail.
- The car came with a receipt of a big engine job of $7K about 1,000 miles ago. Resealed everything.
- The carfax is clean, 1 owner car, but with odometer inconsistency (I am assuming due to pressing the trip meter and breaking the odometer).
- The seller wasn't the original owner, he just purchased the car from a high-end car dealership in Naples Florida, got a deal and resold it to me.

Now, I take on delivery, the windshield is leaking after I have paid for it to be redone, the oil sender light is on, it's 4.25 quarts of low oil (I haven't seen it leak), white smoke on start, AC needs replacement, he had someone install an OEM steering wheel, but forgot to add a hub. All about $3K just to be where I had expected it from paying $50.5K

The car was $47.5K + $2K detailing and some paint correction + $1K for shipping = $50.5K.

Seeing cars on ebay, Pelican, locally, dealers, etc. with the slightly higher miles and in good running condition are around $60K+ (don't know if they have rebuild engines.)

What should I do? I have mixed feelings and going back and forth to keep it or not.

1. Keep the car and take it. Understand what I have to deal with now. With the oil concerns, I eventually will need to redo the oil issues.
2. Sell the car back to him, but I will loose on the shipping again the money I have already spent on fixing the steering wheel, oil refill, odometer and inspection.
3. Resell the car which I don't want to do.

Thanks so much!

Marine Blue

I would suggest having a leak down and compression test done ASAP. That will tell you if the car needs an engine rebuild.

Have you also evaluated the carfax and any maintenance records to confirm the mileage is correct?

gejay

Carfax says it maybe clerical error when it was being serviced. No signs of odometer tampering.

The car is running great and super solid. I will do a leak down test next.

Regardless if the engine runs solid for now and eventually a rebuild in the next 20-30k miles, am I on the right price point for this purchase?

Bloose993TT

If this was the Guards Red 964 that was at the Land Rover/Jag dealer in Naples FL I would be a little worried. My old man lives down there and is friendly with Porsche of Naples right next door...they warned him that particular car had issues and that they won't put it on their lot. Just a heads up.

gejay

Spot on. So now I'm dealing with the issues. With how much I paid, do you guys think I'm at a loss or it's still ok to eventually do work on the car in the future as long as I fill it up with oil.

It's crazy how it went through a $7K repair just over 1 year ago and it still has these concerns.

It's still at the mechanic as we speak and I'll get more detail on the oil leak.

GeorgeK

You need a baseline.
Get it warm, check oil level, correct if necessary. Then monitor.
Windshield: If you know what you are doing, take out, clean the frame and seal thoroughly and refit. Monitor.

AC: At that age, every AC wil leak, not a surprise.


If that makes you feel unconfortable, return the car and see the loss as a painful experience.

Tmistry

Perhaps I'm missing something. Why do a leak down test on a car you just bought, that runs great? The pleasure of dealing with another shop, charging money and wasting your time to tell you something that doesn't matter or have any impact on your decision making?

It sounds to me, like a rather reasonable deal on a 30 year old car. I wouldn't overthink it and I'd start enjoying your purchase. You're in a fantastic car that's going to require some attention and care, eventually. I say this as a fellow owner, not meant to be insulting at all, but a 964, at this point, is definitely in the 'classic' category.

Are you sure you were 4,5 qts low? Unless you happen to be a wizard, I don't know how you'd make this determination. 4.5 qts? I guaranty you, a new car, non Porsche dealership has absolutely no idea how to properly assess the oil level in a 964. Did you add oil after determining that you're under filled? Correct oil level in a 964 is part art and part science. Which gauge are you looking at to get the reading, this stock or the dash gauge? The 'white smoke' on startup may not be what you're thinking.

You asked for honest opinions. Buying a 30 year old car and being concerned about A/C simply isn't realistic. A/c on older cars is not air conditioning, but lukewarm misting.

Any modern, non Porsche dealer would see a 964 as a total basket case. Poor a/c, leaking oil, smells like fumes, bad headlights, weirdly small, ancient mechanicals, who would want such a thing?

Did you buy a car to own and drive, or is it an investment? Are you familiar with the 964 overall? Again, truly no insult intended, but I recommend forgetting the purchase experience, forgetting your costs, buying Adrian streather's book, and driving the living hell out of the greatest classic Porsche you can own. In one year's time, you'll likely realize you got the best deal ever and you'll own a car worth more than you've paid, which you won't want to sell.

If you need reassurance, find a good, PCA known Indy in your area, and pay them to tell you a little bit about how to maintain your car.

Vegas993

If you buy a 964, you're going to have repair bills, even with a perfect PPI. Enjoy the car and replace the things that need it as you go along. It's an old car, things wear out.

You sound like you're trying to talk yourself out of it.

HDA

Tmistry said it best.


Look at my thread, I discovered when I received the car that the "minor 4th gear grind" was actually an "inoperable" 4th gear (almost).

I had your same reaction when I bought a 1992 NSX, albeit for different reasons. Then I said "**** it, let's do this" and little by little I fixed it to where I wanted it to be.

It's like reading a book: it's going to take its time but it will be a good read.

Rocket Rob

+1 - There is always something to fix when cars change hands. Each person has different things that bother them and they put time and money to fix. If these problems appeared a year from now, what would you do? You would fix them. If you like the car, keep it.

cobalt

You answered a lot of this yourself.

First of all never trust a seller. Nice people still lie when it comes to selling used cars. Just because they are on the forums doesn't make them knowledgeable or trustworthy. He might have gotten taken and dumped the car.

Your info is vague.

What does it say was done? who did the work? Were they qualified to do the work? I am assuming they did not do the P&C replacement and head machining to incorporate the head gaskets for this price but it is possible. Is it still the original clutch and flywheel? At 53k miles on an 89 you could be looking at all sorts of possibilities.

How long does the smoke last until it goes away and not for nothing but if it was just resealed or top end done, why? Again back to what does the paperwork say. How long has the light been on? what color is your tail pipe? Signs of burning oil? 4.5 quarts (assuming it is down that much from driving just 1000 miles) is a concern. A half quart not so much.

Did they do this or did you have it done? Paint correction of front cowl by wipers and leaking windshield sounds like common rust issue and was most likely just filled with bondo and painted. I would have the area metered. Most likely the leak is coming from under the windshield seal where they did not repair the rust properly.

Why? Is it not working? leaking etc? Who is telling you it needs replacement? This is an older R12 system it might be a simple repair or it might require the CCU to be checked or any number of things but replacement seems extreme.

Assumptions like this can be costly. There are far more cars out there that owners drove for years with their Speedo disconnected. I have seen cars with well over 150k miles on them and an odo and car fax that will claim only 85k. This is another common problem. How long did the owner or records show no change in mileage. A clean looking car could have far more miles than the odo reads.

How much of the car has been repainted and why? This should be looked into. It can adversely impact value or not depending on what was done.

?? What do you mean. This is not possible.

I am not sure what you are looking to achieve. If the car was an investment I hate to say it but you should have done more research and no doubt had a PPI completed. Honestly being an 89 with all these issues and paintwork it is not investment quality however assuming most of the problems are easily resolved and the odo is correct it wasn't out of line price wise.

After all this time and mileage is the seller even interested in buying it back because now that you know and have documented your issues you will need to disclose them and selling it might be a bit tougher now.

I would make friends with an indy that knows these cars well. Have him give you his $.02 on what he sees. If he knows these cars he can answer your questions and most likely not charge you in the interest of gaining you as a customer. If you are happy with the car in general and this isn't an investment but want a nice 964 than expect to have some expenses and move on.

More people have been burned by these cars now that values have jumped people are trying to pass on issues to unsuspecting buyers and it happens all the time. Don't jump to conclusions and seek some professional help to better understand what you are up against.

Good luck. These are great cars but take some knowledge and understanding.

rkwfxd

OK FWIW I just bought (May) a 90 C2 Tip Coupe with 49K for $50K.

Dealer was a total POS but I knew that during the deal. I was able to verify the mileage was accurate. Car came with $7000 of recent service records. Still, I noticed missing fasteners and a few other things. I was mentally at $42-45K but dealer would not budge and there are no other Tip Coupes on the market.

I was able to take it for multiple test drives and put it on a lift and look it over inside and out. I saw some issues but still pulled the trigger.

Within a week the AC was no longer cold (I had receipts for new compressor and switch over to 134) the radio was not working properly (recently installed CDR220) the driver side lock started to spin freely and of course while it was bone dry during my inspection, it started to leak on the right side.

I put at least another grand into it while in my garage. Tested and recharged the AC and replaced the dryer (it blows cold now). Discovered the radio antenna was not hooked up (it sounds great now). Had the face plate modified so that I could actually see the display, tore apart the door panel and fixed the lock tumbler and replaced the hacked up moister barrier. Replaced the ICV so it run smoother.

Then I took it to my indy for a bunch of maint - flush trans, flush PS system, replace PS belt replace dist belt, 60,000 service. Along the way they found the PS lines needed to be replaced and I had a very small oil leak from a couple of external lines so those and the o-rings are being replaced. Finally, oil pressure seems low at idle when it is hot (supposed to be normal for these cars as mentioned in the manual) but they are pulling and replacing the sender and checking the pressure with a manual gauge to make sure. They also found an old rotent's nest under there.

So now I am looking at another $5,000 bill on top of what I have already done plus the $1800 I already spent for a set of rims.

Still looking forward to $$$ to RR all of the suspension bushings and a complete brake rebuild along with paint correction.

I pretty much EXPECTED all of this with a 27 year old car. Things wear out. On the plus side, I did not buy it as an investment and the things I fix now should last many many years.

Im sure folks on here will read this and think I'm an idiot. I'm OK with that. Its not the first time.

cobalt

There is always something at any price. So long as it is a solid car in the end and you enjoy it who cares it is only money and $5k today isn't much to squabble over. It is always prudent to get the car as mechanically sound as possible. Cosmetics can always come later.

For me fixing the issues is part of the fun and learning about these cars how they were designed, built and maintaining them will only make the experience better so you know what to do in case something is to happen.

Derek911

For the life of me, What I can not understand, is that if we pay $50,000+ for a 25 year old car, what is so hard shelling out an extra $500 on a plane ticket? I will never, never, unless I'm buying a car from Wayne Carini or something and even he looks at every car, buy a car sight unseen. If you get to the point of paying for a PPI and making a deal, spend an extra $1000 on a damn plane ticket and take a trip. I actually don't believe in PPI'S, I think your eyes and test drive are better than a PPI. People, if you are buying one of these cars, factor in a travel budget. 99% of threads where people are unhappy about cars never laid eyes on it before buying. I really don't understand why people don't put the extra effort in.

There is a famous Pelican thread where a guy in Texas got scammed for $30,000 from a car in Florida that didn't exist. He did everything right, even got his own independent PPI, and still got scammed. (The seller got someone to call the buyer pretending to be from the PPI mechanic saying the PPI was fine. After the scam, the buyer called the PPI mechanic to question them, and they said the car never showed up. Elaborate scam)

He lost $30,000 over a $300 airplane ticket, or tank of gas and a drive from Texas to Florida.

Tmistry

Now this dude knows how to buy a 964!