Engine refresh
06-27-2017, 09:01 PM
#16
Actually we charge full price whatever that is, only for the air mass that is in the ports. The rest, head casting, Cam and the rest of the valve train are all at no charge.
At least we charge only for what makes the engine go.
At least we charge only for what makes the engine go.
06-27-2017, 11:18 PM
#17
You do some nice work 
What flow numbers are you able to get out of the 16V head?
What flow numbers are you able to get out of the 16V head?
07-23-2017, 02:39 PM
#18
I received an email from Patrick today telling he is about to ship back the 2.5L development engine he has used over the last 2 seasons. There was a slight delay at his end due to personal reasons. It will be good to get a look inside and see what degradation has occurred with real track time on this engine. This engine is the most developed 2V engine we have done. Our focus went over to Patrick’s new 4V engine.
Over the past few months and as recent as last week we have had several conversations with owners who have asked about some of our engines. We understand that our work and engines are at a level and cost above what the typical 944 owners will pay. We build bespoke race engines and develop parts necessary for producing levels of performance that are competitive and reliable under the most extreme conditions.
We are currently deciding on a strategy of how we can offer some of our parts and services to a broader customer base, even though we are not a production machine shop nor are we an independent repair shop. Your budget and what you decide is an acceptable level of engineering, should be the determining reasons who you choose to do the work.
The 2V and 4V engine development programs we did in conjunction with Patrick have given us a lot of information and procedures we can now offer others. This includes block and cylinder head work along with valve train parts, rotating assemblies etc. Although the parts included in Patrick’s engines may be too expensive for most, we have considered making a more conservative version for those that cannot afford that high of an engine budget.
I have studied and researched what some of the other vendors are selling and we feel we can be a good alternative offering a more engineered product. We do all our own machining repair and modifications in house and rely upon no outside 3rd party to do this work. This allows us to set the quality we require, establish the tolerances we design into our work and control the turnaround time. This CNC work includes all blockwork, Cylinder head rebuilding and porting, along with flow testing, crankshaft work etc.
Our development work and race experiences with Patrick’s programs have proven that a lot of what is offered and considered “must do” are procedures that should never be done.
As an example, Knife edging these cranks is something that should never be done. Removing counterweight mass is counter (excuse the pun) to what these engines need. Some even run without balance shafts. We have proven on the little 2.5L 2V engine how to successfully “balance” these inline 4-cylinder engines when run upwards of 8000+ RPM.
Head work and the often-discussed flow work, how to and the numbers obtained are another pet peeve of mine. Flow work needs to be carefully understood and before any work is started, deciding what are you trying to achieve? Numbers are the result of controlling the air entering and existing the combustion chamber, period! How you steer the air around the guide boss and Valve stem is huge. Port volumes and port sizes are important but a port for an NA engine is completely different than for a Turbo engine. The port for a high RPM Turbo engine is different again than for a street driven Turbo engine. Numbers are meaningless unless used correctly. No one should be buying a head based just on its flow numbers. There are other critical factors required as well.
Unfortunately, they are sold this way by some. I hope to write more tech articles specifically for the 4-cylinder engine and post them on our web site offering advice on what to do and what not to do.
I am a part of this aftermarket and as a vendor I must accept that we are perceived to be the same as the rest. To change that perception requires us to get involved and offer products and services better than the rest. We want to be part of the change and help remove the “under engineered over sold” image this business has.
Over the past few months and as recent as last week we have had several conversations with owners who have asked about some of our engines. We understand that our work and engines are at a level and cost above what the typical 944 owners will pay. We build bespoke race engines and develop parts necessary for producing levels of performance that are competitive and reliable under the most extreme conditions.
We are currently deciding on a strategy of how we can offer some of our parts and services to a broader customer base, even though we are not a production machine shop nor are we an independent repair shop. Your budget and what you decide is an acceptable level of engineering, should be the determining reasons who you choose to do the work.
The 2V and 4V engine development programs we did in conjunction with Patrick have given us a lot of information and procedures we can now offer others. This includes block and cylinder head work along with valve train parts, rotating assemblies etc. Although the parts included in Patrick’s engines may be too expensive for most, we have considered making a more conservative version for those that cannot afford that high of an engine budget.
I have studied and researched what some of the other vendors are selling and we feel we can be a good alternative offering a more engineered product. We do all our own machining repair and modifications in house and rely upon no outside 3rd party to do this work. This allows us to set the quality we require, establish the tolerances we design into our work and control the turnaround time. This CNC work includes all blockwork, Cylinder head rebuilding and porting, along with flow testing, crankshaft work etc.
Our development work and race experiences with Patrick’s programs have proven that a lot of what is offered and considered “must do” are procedures that should never be done.
As an example, Knife edging these cranks is something that should never be done. Removing counterweight mass is counter (excuse the pun) to what these engines need. Some even run without balance shafts. We have proven on the little 2.5L 2V engine how to successfully “balance” these inline 4-cylinder engines when run upwards of 8000+ RPM.
Head work and the often-discussed flow work, how to and the numbers obtained are another pet peeve of mine. Flow work needs to be carefully understood and before any work is started, deciding what are you trying to achieve? Numbers are the result of controlling the air entering and existing the combustion chamber, period! How you steer the air around the guide boss and Valve stem is huge. Port volumes and port sizes are important but a port for an NA engine is completely different than for a Turbo engine. The port for a high RPM Turbo engine is different again than for a street driven Turbo engine. Numbers are meaningless unless used correctly. No one should be buying a head based just on its flow numbers. There are other critical factors required as well.
Unfortunately, they are sold this way by some. I hope to write more tech articles specifically for the 4-cylinder engine and post them on our web site offering advice on what to do and what not to do.
I am a part of this aftermarket and as a vendor I must accept that we are perceived to be the same as the rest. To change that perception requires us to get involved and offer products and services better than the rest. We want to be part of the change and help remove the “under engineered over sold” image this business has.
07-23-2017, 07:59 PM
#20
The only answer I can give is, I do not know.
We have never done any Oil pump work on the stock pump. There is no real reason to do this. These positive displacement pumps are quite efficient but are influenced by many other factors. To really understand the pumps efficiency, you have to look past the pump itself and look at all of the other factors that can cause the pump to loose its efficiency.
If you put an engine with the stock oil pump installed, on the dyno to test the pumps’ efficiency, you must understand the other influences. Oil viscosity, oil temperature, crankshaft and rod rotating mass clearances and RPM. These play a huge part in the pumps ability to pump oil from the oil pan and through the oil system of the engine.
Now install the pump in a car and you must include the rocking motion the oil in the pan is placed under, both side to side and back and forth. The pump may suck oil, air and oil and sometimes but hopefully never, air only.
This is why a dry sump system is often used. To collect the oil in a tank that is not affected by a lot of motion. Also, to remove as much air from the oil as well and have better temperature control.
To use a stock pump on any high-performance engine, these influences must be considered. Just making the pump itself better may not net you any gains. I’m sure if you were to dyno an engine and rev the engine above 5000 RPM you will see some loss of efficiency, but what the main cause I cannot say.
Oil pumps produce volume or, displace oil volume. The pressure is created when that volume is trapped within a given capacity. In an engine, the pressure is regulated by a relief valve and hopefully not by any clearance issues.
I’m sure the oil system looses some overall efficiency at higher RPM and probably why these engines sometimes loose rod bearings. If the stock pump is used in a high RPM engine and for track use, I would recommend controlling the temperature as best as possible, the oil level and maybe going down in viscosity. This may help get more oil flowing through the clearances at the same pressure. But make sure you understand all the consequences in doing this.
It’s almost impossible to control the oil in the pan and what you think is happening I can assure its not. There is very little oil in the bottom of the pan. It’s all stacked up against the side of the pan and block on the one side due to centrifugal forces produced by the crankshaft rotating. This should be one of the reasons for not knife edging cranks. The counterweight is swinging around in mostly air not oil. Trapping the oil at the pickup when it exists the return tube is very important. I will try to put some photos of our wet sump on our web site this week to show how we do this.
We have never done any Oil pump work on the stock pump. There is no real reason to do this. These positive displacement pumps are quite efficient but are influenced by many other factors. To really understand the pumps efficiency, you have to look past the pump itself and look at all of the other factors that can cause the pump to loose its efficiency.
If you put an engine with the stock oil pump installed, on the dyno to test the pumps’ efficiency, you must understand the other influences. Oil viscosity, oil temperature, crankshaft and rod rotating mass clearances and RPM. These play a huge part in the pumps ability to pump oil from the oil pan and through the oil system of the engine.
Now install the pump in a car and you must include the rocking motion the oil in the pan is placed under, both side to side and back and forth. The pump may suck oil, air and oil and sometimes but hopefully never, air only.
This is why a dry sump system is often used. To collect the oil in a tank that is not affected by a lot of motion. Also, to remove as much air from the oil as well and have better temperature control.
To use a stock pump on any high-performance engine, these influences must be considered. Just making the pump itself better may not net you any gains. I’m sure if you were to dyno an engine and rev the engine above 5000 RPM you will see some loss of efficiency, but what the main cause I cannot say.
Oil pumps produce volume or, displace oil volume. The pressure is created when that volume is trapped within a given capacity. In an engine, the pressure is regulated by a relief valve and hopefully not by any clearance issues.
I’m sure the oil system looses some overall efficiency at higher RPM and probably why these engines sometimes loose rod bearings. If the stock pump is used in a high RPM engine and for track use, I would recommend controlling the temperature as best as possible, the oil level and maybe going down in viscosity. This may help get more oil flowing through the clearances at the same pressure. But make sure you understand all the consequences in doing this.
It’s almost impossible to control the oil in the pan and what you think is happening I can assure its not. There is very little oil in the bottom of the pan. It’s all stacked up against the side of the pan and block on the one side due to centrifugal forces produced by the crankshaft rotating. This should be one of the reasons for not knife edging cranks. The counterweight is swinging around in mostly air not oil. Trapping the oil at the pickup when it exists the return tube is very important. I will try to put some photos of our wet sump on our web site this week to show how we do this.
07-23-2017, 10:00 PM
#21
Race Car
Neil, I have a crankshaft coming and discussed it with Taylor already.
Unfortunately, I was supposed to get it out last week but I manage and repair a large municipal fleet from backhoes and street sweepers to fire trucks and police cars and it seems my personal stuff always has to wait .I specifically sought out PD because you guys were the only ones offering crankshaft work that doesn't lighten the part substantially.
If I could make a point or two re. willingness to spend for non-generic top notch performance, I think,
- a fair amount of what could be your customer base is very limited by class rule sets (like me). Developments like rod length outside of factory specifications is off limits. My class (and all three Spec1, 2 and 3 classes in PCA club racing) which makes up probably 75% or more of the 944 family cars that race in North America even limits rod and piston weights. It's not an unwillingness to pay for "competitive performance". If 10/10 competitors on grid are all using brand XX camshaft, then all you need is brand XX camshaft, the driver can handle the rest. He/She is the real variable all things being equal. To be truthful, a great driver can beat a good driver that has 20% more power so some of the performance enhancements are moot and unnecessary expense.
I/We need developments that aid in longevity.
I tell you something that I would pay for right now. A billet factory replacement oil pump with 20% wider gear set or an insert that fits into the factory cast pocket that converts the pump to a rotor/vane type.
Dry sumping is not a choice for the 75+%. I even petitioned the race series director and PCA mechanical rules director and pleaded a case based solely on protecting engine investment and was refused after successfully petitioning use of a different engine model intake and having the Porsche Club rule book changed to allow it.
#2, a kit based on Performance Developments R&D that taps into the factory oil pump suction side, external to the block that would allow external piping alongside of the factory pan and open up creative baffling without use of the pickup tube and oil suction tract between the upper/lower crankcase altogether, eliminating the cracked/sealing of pickup tubes that are the demise of 20% of race engines.
Our rules only stipulate that a front mounted, , factory type crank driven oil pump must be used, no dry sump, it does not limit HOW you use it.
If you investigate the factory oil system, I think one of the most obvious defects is that the block circuitry redirects oil that overcomes the pressure regulator valve right back into the pump suction circuit to recycle it. There is an air bleed orifice at the face of the valve either for aid in system priming or to more accurately control the valve movement by less air/oil saturation.
This oil should be separately discarded and could easily be done with the external pump suction mentioned above.
Oiling, within legality of our rule sets.
You solve these issues and you would already have a customer base that would opt for more of your services like multi location doweling, etc, etc.
T. Simon
Unfortunately, I was supposed to get it out last week but I manage and repair a large municipal fleet from backhoes and street sweepers to fire trucks and police cars and it seems my personal stuff always has to wait .I specifically sought out PD because you guys were the only ones offering crankshaft work that doesn't lighten the part substantially.
If I could make a point or two re. willingness to spend for non-generic top notch performance, I think,
- a fair amount of what could be your customer base is very limited by class rule sets (like me). Developments like rod length outside of factory specifications is off limits. My class (and all three Spec1, 2 and 3 classes in PCA club racing) which makes up probably 75% or more of the 944 family cars that race in North America even limits rod and piston weights. It's not an unwillingness to pay for "competitive performance". If 10/10 competitors on grid are all using brand XX camshaft, then all you need is brand XX camshaft, the driver can handle the rest. He/She is the real variable all things being equal. To be truthful, a great driver can beat a good driver that has 20% more power so some of the performance enhancements are moot and unnecessary expense.
I/We need developments that aid in longevity.
I tell you something that I would pay for right now. A billet factory replacement oil pump with 20% wider gear set or an insert that fits into the factory cast pocket that converts the pump to a rotor/vane type.
Dry sumping is not a choice for the 75+%. I even petitioned the race series director and PCA mechanical rules director and pleaded a case based solely on protecting engine investment and was refused after successfully petitioning use of a different engine model intake and having the Porsche Club rule book changed to allow it.
#2, a kit based on Performance Developments R&D that taps into the factory oil pump suction side, external to the block that would allow external piping alongside of the factory pan and open up creative baffling without use of the pickup tube and oil suction tract between the upper/lower crankcase altogether, eliminating the cracked/sealing of pickup tubes that are the demise of 20% of race engines.
Our rules only stipulate that a front mounted, , factory type crank driven oil pump must be used, no dry sump, it does not limit HOW you use it.
If you investigate the factory oil system, I think one of the most obvious defects is that the block circuitry redirects oil that overcomes the pressure regulator valve right back into the pump suction circuit to recycle it. There is an air bleed orifice at the face of the valve either for aid in system priming or to more accurately control the valve movement by less air/oil saturation.
This oil should be separately discarded and could easily be done with the external pump suction mentioned above.
Oiling, within legality of our rule sets.
You solve these issues and you would already have a customer base that would opt for more of your services like multi location doweling, etc, etc.
T. Simon
07-23-2017, 11:58 PM
#22
Some years ago, we did look into the stock pump and how we could make it more efficient. We did make two custom gears sets. One with a larger root depth and another with more gear teeth. We were working in the principle of a bigger paddle in the water moves more water and more paddles move more water. One requires more engine speed to become more efficient and the other is somewhat limited by real estate. In the end, the engine we did this for became a full-time race engine and the dry sump system was used.
We are a business that must be profitable. We have some inherent disadvantages as well. We are in Southern California where the cost of doing business is very high. This makes the return required to stay in business higher as well. We must choose what projects we take on as an inhouse project carefully to be sure we will see a return for our investment. All other projects are taken on with what can best be described as “time and material”.
The 944 world is extremely difficult to do business in as most will not pay our sort of fees. However, if there is a real need for a better Oil pump and oil system that would be acceptable within PCA rules, we would be happy to consider this. Maybe something could be done with both our un used Oil pump work and the oil pan we developed for wet sumped engines.
We need more information regarding what is allowable and then we could do some initial design feasibility work and come up with an idea of unit costs. Then if there was enough demand we would do further design and go into production.
We are a business that must be profitable. We have some inherent disadvantages as well. We are in Southern California where the cost of doing business is very high. This makes the return required to stay in business higher as well. We must choose what projects we take on as an inhouse project carefully to be sure we will see a return for our investment. All other projects are taken on with what can best be described as “time and material”.
The 944 world is extremely difficult to do business in as most will not pay our sort of fees. However, if there is a real need for a better Oil pump and oil system that would be acceptable within PCA rules, we would be happy to consider this. Maybe something could be done with both our un used Oil pump work and the oil pan we developed for wet sumped engines.
We need more information regarding what is allowable and then we could do some initial design feasibility work and come up with an idea of unit costs. Then if there was enough demand we would do further design and go into production.
07-24-2017, 01:05 AM
#23
Race Car
Some years ago, we did look into the stock pump and how we could make it more efficient. We did make two custom gears sets. One with a larger root depth and another with more gear teeth. We were working in the principle of a bigger paddle in the water moves more water and more paddles move more water. One requires more engine speed to become more efficient and the other is somewhat limited by real estate. In the end, the engine we did this for became a full-time race engine and the dry sump system was used.
We are a business that must be profitable. We have some inherent disadvantages as well. We are in Southern California where the cost of doing business is very high. This makes the return required to stay in business higher as well. We must choose what projects we take on as an inhouse project carefully to be sure we will see a return for our investment. All other projects are taken on with what can best be described as “time and material”.
The 944 world is extremely difficult to do business in as most will not pay our sort of fees. However, if there is a real need for a better Oil pump and oil system that would be acceptable within PCA rules, we would be happy to consider this. Maybe something could be done with both our un used Oil pump work and the oil pan we developed for wet sumped engines.
We need more information regarding what is allowable and then we could do some initial design feasibility work and come up with an idea of unit costs. Then if there was enough demand we would do further design and go into production.
We are a business that must be profitable. We have some inherent disadvantages as well. We are in Southern California where the cost of doing business is very high. This makes the return required to stay in business higher as well. We must choose what projects we take on as an inhouse project carefully to be sure we will see a return for our investment. All other projects are taken on with what can best be described as “time and material”.
The 944 world is extremely difficult to do business in as most will not pay our sort of fees. However, if there is a real need for a better Oil pump and oil system that would be acceptable within PCA rules, we would be happy to consider this. Maybe something could be done with both our un used Oil pump work and the oil pan we developed for wet sumped engines.
We need more information regarding what is allowable and then we could do some initial design feasibility work and come up with an idea of unit costs. Then if there was enough demand we would do further design and go into production.
I was in business myself for almost 30 years. Transmission repair.
In Hydramatic, GM increased the 4 speed 4L60/E front pump from 7 vane, to 10 vane and now currently 13 vane.
This covers both your analogies, 1)more paddles and 2) real estate - they progress to the point where 13 vanes around 360 degrees of the rotor for it's size, introduced failure because the rotors became weakened due to the area required for the vane slots.
Our rules would allow a modified pump in the factory housing or a physically deepened billet or cast version that resembled the factory pump.
Along with the crank, I am interested in, (right now)
a) cams that you could supply to my spec or an adjusted profile after you look at my intent and goal...a service that I would gladly pay for in addition to the cams.
b) an increased efficiency oil pump.
c) improved wet sump (have you considered my idea of tapping the suction, deleting the block/girdle channel and running external piping to the pan..?)
I will get info to Taylor as soon as I can tell him my crank is shipped.
Can y'all generate a paypal invoice so I can pay before it even arrives so there will be no delay on my part...?
T
07-24-2017, 01:14 AM
#24
Race Car
BTW, governing bodies allow "cams are free" for ONLY the 2.5 liter 16V 87-88 944S engine in an attempt to draw in participants because this variant is handicapped by displacement and under-represented in the series, class SP3.
They just have to remain hydraulic.
T
They just have to remain hydraulic.
T
07-24-2017, 01:10 PM
#25
All understood.
I was in business myself for almost 30 years. Transmission repair.
In Hydramatic, GM increased the 4 speed 4L60/E front pump from 7 vane, to 10 vane and now currently 13 vane.
This covers both your analogies, 1)more paddles and 2) real estate - they progress to the point where 13 vanes around 360 degrees of the rotor for it's size, introduced failure because the rotors became weakened due to the area required for the vane slots.
Our rules would allow a modified pump in the factory housing or a physically deepened billet or cast version that resembled the factory pump.
Along with the crank, I am interested in, (right now)
a) cams that you could supply to my spec or an adjusted profile after you look at my intent and goal...a service that I would gladly pay for in addition to the cams.
b) an increased efficiency oil pump.
c) improved wet sump (have you considered my idea of tapping the suction, deleting the block/girdle channel and running external piping to the pan..?)
I will get info to Taylor as soon as I can tell him my crank is shipped.
Can y'all generate a paypal invoice so I can pay before it even arrives so there will be no delay on my part...?
T
I was in business myself for almost 30 years. Transmission repair.
In Hydramatic, GM increased the 4 speed 4L60/E front pump from 7 vane, to 10 vane and now currently 13 vane.
This covers both your analogies, 1)more paddles and 2) real estate - they progress to the point where 13 vanes around 360 degrees of the rotor for it's size, introduced failure because the rotors became weakened due to the area required for the vane slots.
Our rules would allow a modified pump in the factory housing or a physically deepened billet or cast version that resembled the factory pump.
Along with the crank, I am interested in, (right now)
a) cams that you could supply to my spec or an adjusted profile after you look at my intent and goal...a service that I would gladly pay for in addition to the cams.
b) an increased efficiency oil pump.
c) improved wet sump (have you considered my idea of tapping the suction, deleting the block/girdle channel and running external piping to the pan..?)
I will get info to Taylor as soon as I can tell him my crank is shipped.
Can y'all generate a paypal invoice so I can pay before it even arrives so there will be no delay on my part...?
T
07-27-2017, 07:41 PM
#26
I have a couple of questions, 1 in particular. If this was allowable, there may be a way to better the oil system.
We have the oil pan that would be allowable with a 4 window catch can at the bottom with an inspection opening at the pan bottom. I have asked Taylor to put photos of the pan (in pieces) up on out web site.
07-27-2017, 09:22 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
We ran that setup for a couple of years without any issue. Best alternative to a dry sump setup on the market.
07-28-2017, 03:21 PM
#29
Race Car
Crankshaft sent today (finally) and emailed Taylor to inform him that it is on the way.
Mine will be the one in the home made 944 specific crank shaft crate that looks like it HAD to be built by somebody with a severe complex.....!
It's color coded for reassembly for the return trip.
T
Mine will be the one in the home made 944 specific crank shaft crate that looks like it HAD to be built by somebody with a severe complex.....!
It's color coded for reassembly for the return trip.
T
07-28-2017, 03:50 PM
#30
Race Car
I took a look at the PCA regs. I figure with the exceptions you list you must run in the SP3 class.
I have a couple of questions, 1 in particular. If this was allowable, there may be a way to better the oil system.
We have the oil pan that would be allowable with a 4 window catch can at the bottom with an inspection opening at the pan bottom. I have asked Taylor to put photos of the pan (in pieces) up on out web site.
I have a couple of questions, 1 in particular. If this was allowable, there may be a way to better the oil system.
We have the oil pan that would be allowable with a 4 window catch can at the bottom with an inspection opening at the pan bottom. I have asked Taylor to put photos of the pan (in pieces) up on out web site.
Answering your 1st question, yes, that would be legal, cannot even see how it could be deemed even controversial as it uses a stock pan as a base.
This is similar (I said opened to more creative baffling) to what I was trying to explain in the post above, except even the pickup tube, suction channel in the block/girdle could be deleted if the suction side of the front oil pump was tapped externally and a hard line was run alongside the pan to a simple fitting that lead to in-pan baffling.
Your solution looks great though, especially since it removes the factory suction foot that is probably the source of vibration cracks in the tube.
Now, if you don't mind, I have a question, no hurry in response.
The configuration as per stock for the main bearings, which ultimately feed the rods, uses a grooved upper bearing in the crankcase and a "plain" lower bearing in the girdle.
With exception to the #3 main which doubles as thrust, all of the main journals have two holes at less than 180 degrees apart. It seems to me that,
1) since each bearing half covers 180 degrees and one is "plain", there is a measurable time interval when there is no feed at all.
2) since the feed to the rods is traded between the two opposing feed holes as they pass from grooved to plain bearing, there is an oscillation happening at the intersection where the two feed holes meet in the main bearing's center.
I understand that at the speed the crankshaft is spinning and oil under pressure, that the supply to rods may never be interrupted even though the spacing of the holes leaves a +180 degree interval but what about the knifing effect of the oil supply oscillation by the plain bearing....?
Shouldn't we be running grooved bearings on both the crankcase upper and the lower (girdle) which would give simultaneous full time feed and remove the back and forth feed oscillation ....?
T