Notices
944 Turbo and Turbo-S Forum 1982-1991
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: Clore Automotive

Issues running 951 intercooler "in reverse"?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 06-14-2017, 06:02 PM
  #1  
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 45,498
Received 633 Likes on 490 Posts
Default Issues running 951 intercooler "in reverse"?

Anybody know of or have tried reversing the flow direction of the 944 intercooler, presumably with a non-stock intake manifold arrangement?

Believe I had read something somewhere that the flow through the core in opposite direction was inferior to that of the stock direction...but can't find it now of course.

I would think the core doesn't matter but the tanks are what affect the directional flow quality...anyone?
Old 06-14-2017, 07:07 PM
  #2  
Voith
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Voith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 8,385
Received 647 Likes on 409 Posts
Default

Probably end tank shapes has something to do with directional flow..
Old 06-14-2017, 07:45 PM
  #3  
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 45,498
Received 633 Likes on 490 Posts
Default

You usually have parts laying around...
If you laid the 951 intercooler on a table, are the inlet/outlet sticking out at an angle, relative to the table, or are they more or less parallel to the table?

If reasonably parallel could just flip the intercooler "upside down"
Old 06-14-2017, 09:34 PM
  #4  
odonnell
Rennlist Member
 
odonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 4,763
Received 63 Likes on 45 Posts
Default

You could always have the end tanks modified, shameless plug for Ak951.... local buddy here in TX, who has done many with proven dyno gains. The fact that you can modify them to manipulate the engine's breathing efficiency points to end tank design as a sensitive factor, so chances are that reversing it will have an impact to some degree or another.
Old 06-15-2017, 08:59 AM
  #5  
Voith
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Voith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 8,385
Received 647 Likes on 409 Posts
Default

Will try to find ic and put it on a table

I'll modify mine to water cooler and make multi pass compartments in end tanks. That should be fun
Old 06-15-2017, 10:53 AM
  #6  
Humboldtgrin
Drifting
 
Humboldtgrin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA
Posts: 2,268
Received 18 Likes on 17 Posts
Default

LR states the stock intercooler flows 208"cfm, their stage one flows 248 cfm. And if their stage two flow even more then that would be the intercooler that I would recommend if reversing air flow if going that route. I remember seeing what your talking about spencer but I forgot where. I think it was LR brothers or Albert that pointed the flow characteristics of reversing the stock intercooler, I think it was because Tim at SFR I believe was selling an intake manifold that reversed the stock intercooler flow. So the other vendors pointed out the negative effect of reversing airflow. I think the stock flowed like 10% less in reverse due to the end tank design from what I remember.
Old 06-15-2017, 11:44 AM
  #7  
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 45,498
Received 633 Likes on 490 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Voith
Will try to find ic and put it on a table

I'll modify mine to water cooler and make multi pass compartments in end tanks. That should be fun
im sort of leaning to that as well..again...lol

Originally Posted by Humboldtgrin
LR states the stock intercooler flows 208"cfm, their stage one flows 248 cfm. And if their stage two flow even more then that would be the intercooler that I would recommend if reversing air flow if going that route. I remember seeing what your talking about spencer but I forgot where. I think it was LR brothers or Albert that pointed the flow characteristics of reversing the stock intercooler, I think it was because Tim at SFR I believe was selling an intake manifold that reversed the stock intercooler flow. So the other vendors pointed out the negative effect of reversing airflow. I think the stock flowed like 10% less in reverse due to the end tank design from what I remember.
the reason for my question is that i am thinking of finding a different IC to use than the "ebay Rx7" monster i have on hand for reasons of airflow to the radiator. it gets to 90-105 degrees almost every day through the summer here and the stock 944 radiator is just adequate for that, a turbo rad would help but not by much if there is a 24x12x3" wall of aluminum in front of it

i know the 951 IC fits under my 951 nose..lol, so it's an option.
Old 06-15-2017, 02:59 PM
  #8  
Dubai944
Rennlist Member
 
Dubai944's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia
Posts: 813
Received 12 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

I ran the stock intercooler with reverse flow with the supercharger setup for a few years. In another thread we discussed whether running it that way contributed to flow restrictions. If you click on the attachment in the post below you will see some data I collected in a track session that shows pressure drop and temperature drop before and after the intercooler. The stock intercooler seemed to be working quite well given its limitations, but I never ran it the conventional way around to do a direct comparison.

Originally Posted by Dubai944
Posted this data on Eric's Pressure Drop thread, but wanted to discuss how this relates to my car specifically. This is a sample of pressure drop and temperature drop logged during a track test. The only caveat is it was a short session because I got black flagged for excessive noise. In longer sessions I notice my IATS get a lot higher. I fitted a second map sensor and air temp sensor in the out pipe from the supercharger which is before the intercooler.

Attachment 686305

The results are interesting.

First of all I can now quantify how much the supercharger heats up the intake air. Although I should have installed another temperature sensor pre supercharger to be completely accurate, based on ambient temperatures of 25 to 30 C during the track session, the supercharger is adding up to 100 degrees C of temperature which is a lot, but I don't know how that compares to a turbo?

Secondly the intercooler is doing a really good job of pulling the temperature down, much more than I expected. The price to pay is quite a lot of pressure drop, up to 4psi by the time pre-intercooler boost reaches 12psi above 6000rpm. Seems like a lot of pressure drop at only mild boost levels and I imagine it would just get worse if boost was higher.

I am assuming this means that the intercooler is just too small for the amount of air I am flowing. I have read specs on intercoolers which claim only 1 or 2 psi of pressure drop at full flows over 1000cfm. In theory some of these intercoolers should be able to flow all the air I am pumping with less than 1psi pressure drop. The question is will I still get the same level of decent temperature drop with one of these bigger cores?
Old 06-15-2017, 03:05 PM
  #9  
Black51
Three Wheelin'
 
Black51's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,956
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 8 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by V2Rocket
If reasonably parallel could just flip the intercooler "upside down"
Seems to work for the Aussies.
Old 06-15-2017, 03:41 PM
  #10  
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 45,498
Received 633 Likes on 490 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Black51
Seems to work for the Aussies.
they compound the problem by flipping the steering wheel to the wrong side!
Old 06-15-2017, 03:46 PM
  #11  
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 45,498
Received 633 Likes on 490 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Dubai944
I ran the stock intercooler with reverse flow with the supercharger setup for a few years. In another thread we discussed whether running it that way contributed to flow restrictions. If you click on the attachment in the post below you will see some data I collected in a track session that shows pressure drop and temperature drop before and after the intercooler. The stock intercooler seemed to be working quite well given its limitations, but I never ran it the conventional way around to do a direct comparison.
now that is some very good data! THANK YOU.
~40C going into the engine on a 30C day is very good IMO!
pressure drop not desireable but thats why they make smaller pulleys...
i do wonder how the orientation of flow affects things.
some old common wisdom seemed to indicate that the "restrictive skinny IC inlet side" was so shaped to promote even air distribution at the entrance to the IC core which makes sense to me looking at it (going from round tube to tall/skinny more rectangular profile and making a 135 bend)
Old 06-16-2017, 04:46 AM
  #12  
Raceboy
Three Wheelin'
 
Raceboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Estonia
Posts: 1,631
Received 17 Likes on 15 Posts
Default

I ran 951 intercooler in reverse on my 924 with 2.0 turbo, worked withuut any issues but it was just 250 hp engine.

Old 06-16-2017, 08:08 AM
  #13  
Jay Wellwood
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
 
Jay Wellwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hotlanta - NE of the Perimeter
Posts: 12,269
Received 267 Likes on 154 Posts
Default

Another image of running the intercooler in reverse.
Attached Images  
Old 06-16-2017, 06:50 PM
  #14  
Jon951
Instructor
 
Jon951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Near Atlanta GA
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Yet another intercooler running in reverse

Old 06-16-2017, 06:54 PM
  #15  
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 45,498
Received 633 Likes on 490 Posts
Default

^^jON,
Did you have the IC end tank modified or is the IC totally stock?
past 500whp on your car..


Quick Reply: Issues running 951 intercooler "in reverse"?



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 07:36 PM.