my 3L dyno
12-11-2015, 01:40 PM
#61
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As a point of reference, my 3L motor made 449.82 SAE-corrected horsepower on a dynojet the first time I dyno'd it. That was with a near-stock 2.7 head, stock intercooler, stock TB, stock headers, streetable hot cam, stock cap and rotor, Vitesse Stage 5 turbo and MAF, at 22psi.
So, your 405 might appear low at first glance, but it actually lines up pretty closely with mine. SAE correction is a big deal. Florida is hot and humid. The SAE formula assumes 0% humidity, 29.234 station pressure, and 77F temp. I'm guessing it was hotter, more humid and lower pressure in Florida that day. Check out this calculator:
http://www.bigdynodatabase.com/DynoCF.php
If you calculate SAE corrected on an 85 degree day, at standard pressure, 80% humidity, at 50 feet above sea level, your 405 HP becomes 425+ SAE corrected. And you ran at 20psi, compared to my 22psi. If you figure 12hp per psi, that gives this motor EXACTLY as much hp as mine made.
You might wonder why you are not making more, given the big intercooler, custom intake, etc. All I can tell you on that front is that I ran all that stuff for a while and, for the most part it didn't make any more power on my car. Maybe a little, but not at all what you might think. I've taken it all off for the better reliability of the stock parts.
As Shawn said, this might very well be a conservative tune -- either for the reason he said, or because they aren't done yet, or a combination of the two. Shops know people like to see big numbers, but they aren't as concerned about the peaks when tuning. When they are actually ready to deliver the car, they'll probably have a much more customer-friendly graph to show you. If I understood your post correctly, you got this one through the grapevine, so it probably wasn't intended for customer consumption.
The only thing that would trouble me from that dyno is the boost coming on so late. For a motor with that power level, you should definitely be able to see full boost in the 3000-3300 range. Waiting until 4200 to get full boost makes the car less fun to drive to me. For reference, my latest Vitesse turbo makes 1 Bar by 3000rpms and is good for well over 500 at the wheels.
So, your 405 might appear low at first glance, but it actually lines up pretty closely with mine. SAE correction is a big deal. Florida is hot and humid. The SAE formula assumes 0% humidity, 29.234 station pressure, and 77F temp. I'm guessing it was hotter, more humid and lower pressure in Florida that day. Check out this calculator:
http://www.bigdynodatabase.com/DynoCF.php
If you calculate SAE corrected on an 85 degree day, at standard pressure, 80% humidity, at 50 feet above sea level, your 405 HP becomes 425+ SAE corrected. And you ran at 20psi, compared to my 22psi. If you figure 12hp per psi, that gives this motor EXACTLY as much hp as mine made.
You might wonder why you are not making more, given the big intercooler, custom intake, etc. All I can tell you on that front is that I ran all that stuff for a while and, for the most part it didn't make any more power on my car. Maybe a little, but not at all what you might think. I've taken it all off for the better reliability of the stock parts.
As Shawn said, this might very well be a conservative tune -- either for the reason he said, or because they aren't done yet, or a combination of the two. Shops know people like to see big numbers, but they aren't as concerned about the peaks when tuning. When they are actually ready to deliver the car, they'll probably have a much more customer-friendly graph to show you. If I understood your post correctly, you got this one through the grapevine, so it probably wasn't intended for customer consumption.
The only thing that would trouble me from that dyno is the boost coming on so late. For a motor with that power level, you should definitely be able to see full boost in the 3000-3300 range. Waiting until 4200 to get full boost makes the car less fun to drive to me. For reference, my latest Vitesse turbo makes 1 Bar by 3000rpms and is good for well over 500 at the wheels.
12-11-2015, 01:44 PM
#62
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[quote=Tom M'Guinn]As a point of reference, my 3L motor made 449.82 SAE-corrected horsepower on a dynojet the first time I dyno'd it. That was with a near-stock 2.7 head, stock intercooler, stock TB, stock headers, streetable hot cam, stock cap and rotor, Vitesse Stage 5 turbo and MAF, at 22psi.
So, your 405 might appear low at first glance, but it actually lines up pretty closely with mine. SAE correction is a big deal. Florida is hot and humid. The SAE formula assumes 0% humidity, 29.234 station pressure, and 77F temp. I'm guessing it was hotter, more humid and lower pressure in Florida that day. Check out this calculator:
http://www.bigdynodatabase.com/DynoCF.php
If you calculate SAE corrected on an 85 degree day, at standard pressure, 80% humidity, at 50 feet above sea level, your 405 HP becomes 425+ SAE corrected. And you ran at 20psi, compared to my 22psi. If you figure 12hp per psi, that gives this motor EXACTLY as much hp as mine made.
You might wonder why you are not making more, given the big intercooler, custom intake, etc. All I can tell you on that front is that I ran all that stuff for a while and, for the most part it didn't make any more power on my car. Maybe a little, but not at all what you might think. I've taken it all off for the better reliability of the stock parts.
As Shawn said, this might very well be a conservative tune -- either for the reason he said, or because they aren't done yet, or a combination of the two. Shops know people like to see big numbers, but they aren't as concerned about the peaks when tuning. When they are actually ready to deliver the car, they'll probably have a much more customer-friendly graph to show you. If I understood your post correctly, you got this one through the grapevine, so it probably wasn't intended for customer consumption.
The only thing that would trouble me from that dyno is the boost coming on so late. For a motor with that power level, you should definitely be able to see full boost in the 3000-3300 range. Waiting until 4200 to get full boost makes the car less fun to drive to me. For reference, my latest Vitesse turbo makes 1 Bar by 3000rpms and is good for well over 500 at
OK that makes sense, yes I was a little concerned why the Turbo sports so late on my 3 L is the Percision 6262 that massive of a turbo for my motor I was told it would not be ! As for the Dyno The car is fully tuned that is what they told me, is ready for pick up no more tuning needed
So, your 405 might appear low at first glance, but it actually lines up pretty closely with mine. SAE correction is a big deal. Florida is hot and humid. The SAE formula assumes 0% humidity, 29.234 station pressure, and 77F temp. I'm guessing it was hotter, more humid and lower pressure in Florida that day. Check out this calculator:
http://www.bigdynodatabase.com/DynoCF.php
If you calculate SAE corrected on an 85 degree day, at standard pressure, 80% humidity, at 50 feet above sea level, your 405 HP becomes 425+ SAE corrected. And you ran at 20psi, compared to my 22psi. If you figure 12hp per psi, that gives this motor EXACTLY as much hp as mine made.
You might wonder why you are not making more, given the big intercooler, custom intake, etc. All I can tell you on that front is that I ran all that stuff for a while and, for the most part it didn't make any more power on my car. Maybe a little, but not at all what you might think. I've taken it all off for the better reliability of the stock parts.
As Shawn said, this might very well be a conservative tune -- either for the reason he said, or because they aren't done yet, or a combination of the two. Shops know people like to see big numbers, but they aren't as concerned about the peaks when tuning. When they are actually ready to deliver the car, they'll probably have a much more customer-friendly graph to show you. If I understood your post correctly, you got this one through the grapevine, so it probably wasn't intended for customer consumption.
The only thing that would trouble me from that dyno is the boost coming on so late. For a motor with that power level, you should definitely be able to see full boost in the 3000-3300 range. Waiting until 4200 to get full boost makes the car less fun to drive to me. For reference, my latest Vitesse turbo makes 1 Bar by 3000rpms and is good for well over 500 at
OK that makes sense, yes I was a little concerned why the Turbo sports so late on my 3 L is the Percision 6262 that massive of a turbo for my motor I was told it would not be ! As for the Dyno The car is fully tuned that is what they told me, is ready for pick up no more tuning needed
12-11-2015, 01:45 PM
#63
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as for the dyno racing comments, yes no one wins a race on a dyno slip, but I can't imagine many people who own Porsches routinely buy and pay for 500 of anything and are satisfied with 400 of their purchase
12-11-2015, 01:46 PM
#64
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I agree with pole position.
I don't care what turbo you have how many 3l 951 motors have you ever seen make 450-500rwhp on street fuel with a proper, safe map? Hmmmm, none.
It's entirely possible Broadfoot was optimistic in their estimation, its something that shops do all the time. The builder of my stroker was. Or that this motor can make 450-500rwhp but only on an aggressive tune with race fuel. Maybe something was lost in translation there, who knows?
In the end though, who cares? There aren't very many people making a safe 400rwhp on a turbo motor on this forum, you're in a very small minority.
Again, drive the car. See how the performance is. Leave it alone for awhile. Go from there.
I don't care what turbo you have how many 3l 951 motors have you ever seen make 450-500rwhp on street fuel with a proper, safe map? Hmmmm, none.
It's entirely possible Broadfoot was optimistic in their estimation, its something that shops do all the time. The builder of my stroker was. Or that this motor can make 450-500rwhp but only on an aggressive tune with race fuel. Maybe something was lost in translation there, who knows?
In the end though, who cares? There aren't very many people making a safe 400rwhp on a turbo motor on this forum, you're in a very small minority.
Again, drive the car. See how the performance is. Leave it alone for awhile. Go from there.
12-11-2015, 01:47 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by Auto_Werks 3.6
if you can document this agreement, reject the engine and (likely) take him to court. if you're at 400 and only promised 450 you're down only a little more than 10%....get what you paid for. however if you just sent him 18k without a contract, i would just take the car and be glad you have anything to show for this adventure.
as for the dyno racing comments, yes no one wins a race on a dyno slip, but I can't imagine many people who own Porsches routinely buy and pay for 500 of anything and are satisfied with 400 of their purchase
as for the dyno racing comments, yes no one wins a race on a dyno slip, but I can't imagine many people who own Porsches routinely buy and pay for 500 of anything and are satisfied with 400 of their purchase
12-11-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by docwyte
I agree with pole position.
I don't care what turbo you have how many 3l 951 motors have you ever seen make 450-500rwhp on street fuel with a proper, safe map? Hmmmm, none.
It's entirely possible Broadfoot was optimistic in their estimation, its something that shops do all the time. The builder of my stroker was. Or that this motor can make 450-500rwhp but only on an aggressive tune with race fuel. Maybe something was lost in translation there, who knows?
In the end though, who cares? There aren't very many people making a safe 400rwhp on a turbo motor on this forum, you're in a very small minority.
Again, drive the car. See how the performance is. Leave it alone for awhile. Go from there.
I don't care what turbo you have how many 3l 951 motors have you ever seen make 450-500rwhp on street fuel with a proper, safe map? Hmmmm, none.
It's entirely possible Broadfoot was optimistic in their estimation, its something that shops do all the time. The builder of my stroker was. Or that this motor can make 450-500rwhp but only on an aggressive tune with race fuel. Maybe something was lost in translation there, who knows?
In the end though, who cares? There aren't very many people making a safe 400rwhp on a turbo motor on this forum, you're in a very small minority.
Again, drive the car. See how the performance is. Leave it alone for awhile. Go from there.
12-11-2015, 02:20 PM
#68
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Maybe I buried the lead in my long post. If it was 90 degrees in his shop, 100% humidity, and low pressure that day, that dyno graph you posted would show 440hp SAE corrected. If you turned the boost up to 25psi, it would show over 500hp. That is 100% consistent with a typical 3L motor. But, the boost comes on much too late for that power level, and is something I would want to correct.
12-11-2015, 02:24 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by Tom M'Guinn
Maybe I buried the lead in my long post. If it was 90 degrees in his shop, 100% humidity, and low pressure that day, that dyno graph you posted would show 440hp SAE corrected. If you turned the boost up to 25psi, it would show over 500hp. That is 100% consistent with a typical 3L motor. But, the boost comes on much too late for that power level, and is something I would want to correct.
12-11-2015, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom M'Guinn
Maybe I buried the lead in my long post. If it was 90 degrees in his shop, 100% humidity, and low pressure that day, that dyno graph you posted would show 440hp SAE corrected. If you turned the boost up to 25psi, it would show over 500hp. That is 100% consistent with a typical 3L motor. But, the boost comes on much too late for that power level, and is something I would want to correct.
12-11-2015, 02:35 PM
#71
Pro
All of the components that favor low-end torque have been replaced with components that help it flow at the top end. If they say it's perfect, then it's probably building power the way they expected it to. Not sure you're going to make much progress on that.
Edit: One thing comes to mind - you'd have to run a dual scroll turbo with a quick-spool valve. Too late to go this direction though.
Edit: One thing comes to mind - you'd have to run a dual scroll turbo with a quick-spool valve. Too late to go this direction though.
12-11-2015, 02:41 PM
#72
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No way to know for sure why the spool is late, from here in internetland. Turbo might be too big (for my tastes) or there could be some other issue like leaks, etc.
12-11-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom M'Guinn
Not sure how to reconcile these two statements.
No way to know for sure why the spool is late, from here in internetland. Turbo might be too big (for my tastes) or there could be some other issue like leaks, etc.
No way to know for sure why the spool is late, from here in internetland. Turbo might be too big (for my tastes) or there could be some other issue like leaks, etc.
12-11-2015, 04:05 PM
#74
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Part of the late spool is probably due to the intake. Looks like he is running a short runner/large plenum intake. You will loose quite a bit in the mid range. I make up for this with extra stroke (95 mm). The intake is built for top end. I agree with Doc, drive the car and do not focus on the numbers. Obviously your relationship with Albert is seriously damaged. It looks like a solid foundation to me.
12-11-2015, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by refresh951
Part of the late spool is probably due to the intake. Looks like he is running a short runner/large plenum intake. You will loose quite a bit in the mid range. I make up for this with extra stroke (95 mm). The intake is built for top end. I agree with Doc, drive the car and do not focus on the numbers. Obviously your relationship with Albert is seriously damaged. It looks like a solid foundation to me.