adrial

What's a 951S then?

Swedeboy

I have both WRX & 951.

The trick to the WRX is the low gearing...it runs out of breath over 160kph(100mph). The strengths of the WRX are launching from a standing start (you always have grip on a dry road) & overtaking from say 70-110kph. Other than that it's not really that nice for stop and go traffic - unless you adopt a fairly anti-social driving style. There is absolutely nothing happening under 3000rpm.

The 951 (270hp kit) is more difficult to launch from a standing start. It dominates the WRX in every speed range - over 100kph (60mph) ridicuously so.

I have run the WRX against an STi and it's gotten so badly whipped it was actually hilarious, as well as a friend who ran his E46 M3 against a tuned STi and had a tough time staying ahead. The STi's are in a different class to the WRX altogether...as mentioned they are factory-tuned WRX's with all the necessary go-faster stuff - e.g. better engine internals, better suspension, 6-speed gearbox and not to mention much better brakes (6-pot Brembos). There really is no comparison between a WRX and an STi - other than the fugly exterior and the low-quality interiour.

Mike Murcia

I realize that the 951s is also a factory midified 951, but, while not disrespecting the 951s, it has technology that is out of date compared to the STI. Not many will disagree. I know there is no true comparing a Porsche to Subaru, but if it has to be done, I think this is as close as it's going to get...2.5L turbocharged 4-bangers. One has an edge of ~13 years of technology, but the 951s is still no underdog. By going standalone, or even just adding a piggyback to the 951s to fine tune the engineering Porsche gave us... now that's a more level playing field.

streckfu's

Let's see how well the Subi holds up opver the next 12-16 years. They may be great cars but will they have the staying power.

Take a current 951 modified to ~320rwhp and a few suspension goodies. Do a detailed evaluation for acceleration, top speed, track time (any course), skid pad, etc.

12 years from now, do the same for the subi. How many will still be around? How many will still be around and peforming better than stock? Will the still have the tuner support?

I feel that few cars built now will have the staying power. The current culture will be too focused on the latest goodie and many of the currently popular cars ( WRX, STi, SRT-4, Evo, etc.) the next offering.

Jake951

Here is a 60-100 number from Road & Track. Actually what I did is subtract the reported 0-60 time from the 0-100 time. This means the 60-100 time is really from a flying WOT start.

STi: 60-100 in 7.7 sec.

The report indicates there was one upshift from 3rd to 4th before 100 mph.

Now, from some old Road Track issues:

944 Turbo: 60-100 in 9.3 sec.
944 Turbo S: 60-100 in 8.6 sec.

The non S Turbo had one upshift from 2nd to 3rd after 60 mph but stayed in 3rd through 100 mph. The Turbo S had two upshifts, from 2nd to 3rd after 60 mph and from 3rd to 4th before 100 mph.

As you can see, the STi runs a bit faster than the Turbo S (with two upshifts vs one) and faster yet than the standard Turbo.

Last month I reported a 60-100 run in 5.9 sec in my Turbo S with the Guru MAP setup. It was done all in third gear from a steady 60 mph (not a flying start) and then flooring it. Also the second half of the run was up a slight incline. From a flying WOT start with no turbo lag and on level road I might have done a half second faster. And I'm only at 13 psi at redline.

Jim H.

I'll chip in a little as my "story" is relevant to this thread.

I bought a brand new WRX when they first came out because I wanted a sensible but fast car that I could track. Which I did, and it was good.

First track event was bone stock (hell it still had the temp plates on it!). I drove it pretty hard and actually got moved up to a higher run group, I was hanging with some 3rd generation RX-7s for comparison. Lap times 1:30-1:31 at putnam park.

Next event I had some O.Z. rims, H&R springs, and Kumho 721s. Lap times around 1:27 and change (which really raised some eyebrows).

Third event I had installed an aftermarked kit which substantially improved power (+50HP and similar torque). Weather was very hot which neutralized the HP gains due to intercooler heat soak etc. Plus the brakes were SCARY this time around. Yikes!!! Lap times stayed in the 1:27 -1:28s. However...It was also during this event that I went for my first ride in a 951, an E stock silberossa driven by Steve Schardt no less(for those of you not in the know, he's quite a good driver). SOB...he was pulling down 1:20 - 1:21s with my 200lbs in the right seat. I was dumbfounded. Up to that point I had thought of these 944T's as kind of "prissy" cars. Man was I converted. I got back from that ride and walked around the pits looking at all the 951s and decided then and there that I would sell the Subie and get one of these beasts.

In fact, as I was walking around I came across a friendly instructor who had an 89 red on black 951 that seemed to be exactly what I now wanted so badly. His was lightly modded with an engine rebuilt 17K ago with APE chips, honed intake, carillo rods. It had Half a cage with racing recaros and 5 point harnesses. Fabcar A-arms, custom valved Koni's and Bilsteins in back, B&B stainless exhast with carbon silencer (sounded great). Low miles too (59K)Yep that was it. One day I would get a car just like this. In fact, I asked him if he ever wanted to sell it. He said maybe one day.

Luckily that "one day" came about 6 months later... and that same friggen 89 951 is sitting in my garage right now. About a month ago I took it to its first track day with me at the wheel (after swapping out the APE chips for Gurus). Turned some 1:22s on some old RA1 tires. This fall I'm going again and I'm sure I'll get it to 1:20 on some new Hoosiers (maybe 1:19 and change?) We'll see. I couldn't be happier.

Oh well back to the point...Yeah those Subies and EVOs are pretty good on the surface and the STi probably even has some depth, but they don't and probably never will have the GUTS that our cars have. Period. I haven't missed that WRX for even a second.

No offense to you subie drivers out there, just my 2c.

Jim H.

Jake951

At the risk of getting off topic on the STi, I looked up a couple more 60-100 mph numbers for other popular machines in recent issues of R&T:

'03 Cobra SVT: 6.2 sec
'03 Corvette Z06: 5.4 sec

As before, these are "flying start" numbers. Hmmm...very interesting!

Kurt

So I ran into a "normal" WRX on some backroads once and kept up with it easy, through twists, turns and some straights with my 944...

...N.A.!!!! Nevertheless, it was an amusing ride, the driver was definitely pushing it as he took off as soon as I was within sight. Had a smile pasted on my face for the whole ride home at the thought of keeping up with such a glorified new sports car.

bdellis

Yea, I have driven the 2002 WRX, and was not impressed. my modified maxima could run the same numbers. The STI models as well as the new EVO and even Neon SRT4's are all a different story though. These little cars are fast, Thing is they are 4 door and more times than not there is at least 1 passenger maybe 2 or 3. Odds are if you encounter one you will have a slight weight advantage above the stock weight due to their passenger capacity in additon to the curb weight of the cars!
At any rate i would not be suprised if these cars ended up like the older Taurus SHO's, and Dodge Spirit RT turbo's etc. quick little cars that suprise people from time to time, but not a whole lot of them on the road in say 2010.....

They are great for the value. Hell every car that hits the road now seems to run low 6 sec 0-60 times and 1/4 miles under 15 secs. The bar has been raised a bit. I used to love reading the performance testing times in the back of auto mags where they posted the performance times. now the gap is closing quickly. But at the cost of the quality.

I can say this though. Our cars are well made. The simple interior is well before its time 85.5 and up. and the craftmanship is not matched by these newer cars. I feel like I am in a tin can with plastic wrap when driving the cars. Even shuttiing the doors dont have the same feel as our cars. they are nice, but not a porsche. The buttons, seats, even the feel of the metal the car is made of. Or plastic in may cases is not matched to ours.

I drove the new 350z the other day and was not impressed. The car felt foreign. Its hard to explain, but the moment I sat in my 944 I felt like I was one with the car. And when driving it I truely feel like I am in full control of the car. same fel today as the first time I got in one in 1991.

Konstantin

ok my friends 968 Turbo S (tuned by him self)
60-100 3.9 sec
my car 5,4 sec :-(
(I feel so slow ;-)

Konstantin

'86 944 turbo

5.4 thats still fast. You can keep up with Z06. What mods do you have.

Duke

Konstantin, since I know you're in Germany an usally uses km/h instead of mph I have to ask if you really mean 60-100 mph since that is 96 - 160 km/h? Or if the run was between 100-160 km/h?

mdex

I am another owner of both a WRX and a 951s (well s+?)... I was looking to upgrade to an STI, and have driven them a fair bit, but there is no comparison between the Porsche and the Subaru.

The subaru's are rally cars... easy to toss around, but not as good on track, the Porsche is more of road course car... so it depends on what kind of driving you do the most of...

But handling aside, as I don't see an STI being quicker on a road course in any conditions other then a hurricane (and I was on track last Friday in the big storm, and walked away from the 2 Subarus there.... ) but the major difference for me is in the driver interface.... the steering, the brakes, the STI feels like a toy next to the Porsche... every time I hop into my WRX after driving the Porsche I swear that the car is broken since everything feels so flimsy.

Kurt

So looking at those 2 comparison pictures I am just shocked at how beautiful the 951 looks compared to this WRX "thing". The styling is so friggin ugly, which further emphasizes the good looks of our cars. I'm so impressed with the timeless styling of our cars.

*sigh

EZRider

I am a big fan of WRX. Myself own the lowly 2.2l Impreza Outback This little car handles and stops nicely. For all around good/bad weather commuting it's hard to beat these cars. The WRX and 951 are two different kinds of cars. If money was no object I'd have both STi and 951 in my driveway. Otherwise just the 951