VW/Audi 07K (2.5L 20V I5) Swap Thread
10-02-2018, 12:28 PM
#406
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
951 is 55-56 or so mm, just like the 944 NA.
remember something that 67King (ex Ford head/intake design guy) said...horsepower is dictated by mass, throttle bodies control volume.
in an 07K even at 25psi you're still only moving 2.5L worth of volume per 2 revolutions, they are just denser...(151ci x 7000rpm)/3456 (ci to cf x2 for a 4 stroke) = 305 cfm actually going through the throttle body.
that 680 CFM number is what the inlet to the turbo is seeing...
what size TB did the 07K come with originally? use that as a base and maybe add a few MM for good measure.
OEM TB's are sized down for idle/emissions/throttle control while achieving power targets.
i think a 65mm is a perfect size for this engine size, remember refresh951 dyno'd stock 951 TB vs Ford 65mm and picked up what, 30hp at the top end and really smoothed out the power curve?
remember something that 67King (ex Ford head/intake design guy) said...horsepower is dictated by mass, throttle bodies control volume.
in an 07K even at 25psi you're still only moving 2.5L worth of volume per 2 revolutions, they are just denser...(151ci x 7000rpm)/3456 (ci to cf x2 for a 4 stroke) = 305 cfm actually going through the throttle body.
that 680 CFM number is what the inlet to the turbo is seeing...
what size TB did the 07K come with originally? use that as a base and maybe add a few MM for good measure.
OEM TB's are sized down for idle/emissions/throttle control while achieving power targets.
i think a 65mm is a perfect size for this engine size, remember refresh951 dyno'd stock 951 TB vs Ford 65mm and picked up what, 30hp at the top end and really smoothed out the power curve?
Looking into throttle body sizing, I think the stock VW TB will actually work just fine. It is ~65mm, which should be good for well beyond my goal of 500 hp, 7000 rpm, 25 psi. The calcs I found on this said around 680 CFM would be needed to achieve those numbers, which gives air speed of around 220 mph through the 65 mm throttle opening... so well below speed of sound and all the efficiency losses that happen there.
For comparison, I think the stock 951 TB is only around 55 mm (can someone measure and let me know?).
For comparison, I think the stock 951 TB is only around 55 mm (can someone measure and let me know?).
10-02-2018, 01:36 PM
#407
Rennlist Member
951 is 55-56 or so mm, just like the 944 NA.
remember something that 67King (ex Ford head/intake design guy) said...horsepower is dictated by mass, throttle bodies control volume.
in an 07K even at 25psi you're still only moving 2.5L worth of volume per 2 revolutions, they are just denser...(151ci x 7000rpm)/3456 (ci to cf x2 for a 4 stroke) = 305 cfm actually going through the throttle body.
that 680 CFM number is what the inlet to the turbo is seeing...
what size TB did the 07K come with originally? use that as a base and maybe add a few MM for good measure.
OEM TB's are sized down for idle/emissions/throttle control while achieving power targets.
i think a 65mm is a perfect size for this engine size, remember refresh951 dyno'd stock 951 TB vs Ford 65mm and picked up what, 30hp at the top end and really smoothed out the power curve?
remember something that 67King (ex Ford head/intake design guy) said...horsepower is dictated by mass, throttle bodies control volume.
in an 07K even at 25psi you're still only moving 2.5L worth of volume per 2 revolutions, they are just denser...(151ci x 7000rpm)/3456 (ci to cf x2 for a 4 stroke) = 305 cfm actually going through the throttle body.
that 680 CFM number is what the inlet to the turbo is seeing...
what size TB did the 07K come with originally? use that as a base and maybe add a few MM for good measure.
OEM TB's are sized down for idle/emissions/throttle control while achieving power targets.
i think a 65mm is a perfect size for this engine size, remember refresh951 dyno'd stock 951 TB vs Ford 65mm and picked up what, 30hp at the top end and really smoothed out the power curve?
Ok, so that CFM calculator is for turbo inlet? I like your equation better, that makes sense.
In any case, I think it will work out well to stick with the 07K throttle. That way anyone who wants to run NA with the stock ECU will be able to do it, and also looking at VEMS documentation I think they already have a setup that talks to the VW throttle by wire. The only downside is I'll have to replace the 944 gas pedal with a VW throttle by wire pedal. Probably not a big deal, though.
10-02-2018, 01:46 PM
#408
Looking into throttle body sizing, I think the stock VW TB will actually work just fine. It is ~65mm, which should be good for well beyond my goal of 500 hp, 7000 rpm, 25 psi. The calcs I found on this said around 680 CFM would be needed to achieve those numbers, which gives air speed of around 220 mph through the 65 mm throttle opening... so well below speed of sound and all the efficiency losses that happen there.
For comparison, I think the stock 951 TB is only around 55 mm (can someone measure and let me know?).
For comparison, I think the stock 951 TB is only around 55 mm (can someone measure and let me know?).
10-06-2018, 10:40 AM
#410
Rennlist Member
Just thought I'd throw this up here for those looking for swap parts. After not being able to find the Iroz parts I've done a bit of searching and found this site http://byiabed-com.3dcartstores.com/ . Although the website is still being set up they do offer multiple products that appear to be possibly helpful, such as their spin on oil filter adapter plate, which would remove the oil cooler and plastic filter housing to replace it with a just a single billet bolt on plate. You'd still need a sandwich plate to add an aftermarket oil cooler, however I plan on doing so and I'm sure many of you are as well, especially since it seems that many of the people doing this swap are looking to get power in the high hundreds. Although many of the VW guys like the cartridge filters, I was looking for a spin on application so that I could use an oil filter relocation kit. Again, they're not completely up and running, but they've been consistently adding products.
10-07-2018, 10:29 AM
#415
Rennlist Member
- Oil Adapter (to attach DS engine mount)
- 1.8T PS Pump Bracket
- Billet valve cover (would be cool to make it with PORSCHE on it, similar to the 944 cam housing)
10-07-2018, 03:00 PM
#416
Rennlist Member
951 is 55-56 or so mm, just like the 944 NA.
remember something that 67King (ex Ford head/intake design guy) said...horsepower is dictated by mass, throttle bodies control volume.
in an 07K even at 25psi you're still only moving 2.5L worth of volume per 2 revolutions, they are just denser...(151ci x 7000rpm)/3456 (ci to cf x2 for a 4 stroke) = 305 cfm actually going through the throttle body.
that 680 CFM number is what the inlet to the turbo is seeing...
what size TB did the 07K come with originally? use that as a base and maybe add a few MM for good measure.
OEM TB's are sized down for idle/emissions/throttle control while achieving power targets.
i think a 65mm is a perfect size for this engine size, remember refresh951 dyno'd stock 951 TB vs Ford 65mm and picked up what, 30hp at the top end and really smoothed out the power curve?
remember something that 67King (ex Ford head/intake design guy) said...horsepower is dictated by mass, throttle bodies control volume.
in an 07K even at 25psi you're still only moving 2.5L worth of volume per 2 revolutions, they are just denser...(151ci x 7000rpm)/3456 (ci to cf x2 for a 4 stroke) = 305 cfm actually going through the throttle body.
that 680 CFM number is what the inlet to the turbo is seeing...
what size TB did the 07K come with originally? use that as a base and maybe add a few MM for good measure.
OEM TB's are sized down for idle/emissions/throttle control while achieving power targets.
i think a 65mm is a perfect size for this engine size, remember refresh951 dyno'd stock 951 TB vs Ford 65mm and picked up what, 30hp at the top end and really smoothed out the power curve?
The intake manifold looks great, and I am looking forward to what kind of responses you receive from the casting shops. Also, any news on those bellhousings?
10-07-2018, 08:03 PM
#418
Rennlist Member
iAbed just got back to me and it's not exactly the response I was hoping for. They are asking $269 for the billet oil filter housing. I'm attempting to get a quote on those iroz parts anyway, however I feel extremely ridiculous paying the same price for a small oil filter adapter as I did for the entire engine and I can't image they'd be asking anywhere near that for custom orders. Although I had asked quite a few questions, the exact response I received was "Those are $269 USD and are in stock." (In reference to the oil filter housing) "Right now we are still working on the oil pan."
The intake manifold looks great, and I am looking forward to what kind of responses you receive from the casting shops. Also, any news on those bellhousings?
The intake manifold looks great, and I am looking forward to what kind of responses you receive from the casting shops. Also, any news on those bellhousings?
10-07-2018, 08:05 PM
#419
Rennlist Member
iAbed just got back to me and it's not exactly the response I was hoping for. They are asking $269 for the billet oil filter housing. I'm attempting to get a quote on those iroz parts anyway, however I feel extremely ridiculous paying the same price for a small oil filter adapter as I did for the entire engine and I can't image they'd be asking anywhere near that for custom orders. Although I had asked quite a few questions, the exact response I received was "Those are $269 USD and are in stock." (In reference to the oil filter housing) "Right now we are still working on the oil pan."
The intake manifold looks great, and I am looking forward to what kind of responses you receive from the casting shops. Also, any news on those bellhousings?
The intake manifold looks great, and I am looking forward to what kind of responses you receive from the casting shops. Also, any news on those bellhousings?
10-09-2018, 09:26 AM
#420
This is great news!!! As a dealer you'll probably be officially able to utilize the multiple item distribution ability, and it might just a company policy that anyone distributing parts should be approved as a dealer so that they're not re-branded and sold for a profit.
