Refresh951's Hybrid Ultra Stroker Build
03-04-2013, 09:17 PM
#301
Rennlist Member
Comment on intake manifolds: I understand you're trying to determine whether the stock or slightly modified intake will support your power goals. The answer is yes, if you give it enough boost. But... since the turbo is such a good heat generator, the real challenge is to manage that heat so the engine stays happy at your power level for more than the short term. The easiest way to do this is to keep the boost down. So back to the intake... More air into this 951 air pump, and more air out means mo' powah. You need to identify the biggest restrictions, and address them. Yes, mind the budget, and don't throw away $ on porting your intake if the air filter box won't support the CFM needed (just an example). Someone needs to step up and do some scientific testing on a proper flow bench with a proper operator. Any other approach is just guessing, and very likely requires more boost than necessary.
I've got some flow numbers with mildly modified 944 and 951 heads. Back to back dyno testing says the mods are worth power relative to unmodified heads. That's fine, but the question you need answered is can a XXX cfm airflow at XXhg support xxx hp? What does your intake system (complete from air cleaner to cylinder flow? What does your exhaust (from cylinder to tip of exhaust pipe) flow? Where are the restrictions?
If I may, (and it's okay with Robstah), these are the things you might want to be thinking about.
I've got some flow numbers with mildly modified 944 and 951 heads. Back to back dyno testing says the mods are worth power relative to unmodified heads. That's fine, but the question you need answered is can a XXX cfm airflow at XXhg support xxx hp? What does your intake system (complete from air cleaner to cylinder flow? What does your exhaust (from cylinder to tip of exhaust pipe) flow? Where are the restrictions?
If I may, (and it's okay with Robstah), these are the things you might want to be thinking about.
03-04-2013, 10:42 PM
#302
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Comment on intake manifolds: I understand you're trying to determine whether the stock or slightly modified intake will support your power goals. The answer is yes, if you give it enough boost. But... since the turbo is such a good heat generator, the real challenge is to manage that heat so the engine stays happy at your power level for more than the short term. The easiest way to do this is to keep the boost down. So back to the intake... More air into this 951 air pump, and more air out means mo' powah.
That's why I focused on flow on my last 2.5L 8V turbo (stock pistons, N/A head)).
400RWHP at 17psi
415RWHP at 18psi
Both on 91 octane pump gas. And both on a stock intercooler.
JME delivered the finished head. Then we cut the intake apart. Ported it. Tack welded it back together and flow benched it. Cut it back apart and kept tweaking the ports until it flowed like we wanted it flow.
The stock TB was enlarged as well.
The head/cam/intake and the SFR 4-1 header really let it make great power at lowish boost levels. Which meant a lot less heat generated.
TonyG
03-04-2013, 10:49 PM
#303
Rennlist Member
All sounds good to me!
03-04-2013, 10:52 PM
#304
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Exactly.
That's why I focused on flow on my last 2.5L 8V turbo (stock pistons, N/A head)).
400RWHP at 17psi
415RWHP at 18psi
Both on 91 octane pump gas. And both on a stock intercooler.
JME delivered the finished head. Then we cut the intake apart. Ported it. Tack welded it back together and flow benched it. Cut it back apart and kept tweaking the ports until it flowed like we wanted it flow.
The stock TB was enlarged as well.
The head/cam/intake and the SFR 4-1 header really let it make great power at lowish boost levels. Which meant a lot less heat generated.
TonyG
That's why I focused on flow on my last 2.5L 8V turbo (stock pistons, N/A head)).
400RWHP at 17psi
415RWHP at 18psi
Both on 91 octane pump gas. And both on a stock intercooler.
JME delivered the finished head. Then we cut the intake apart. Ported it. Tack welded it back together and flow benched it. Cut it back apart and kept tweaking the ports until it flowed like we wanted it flow.
The stock TB was enlarged as well.
The head/cam/intake and the SFR 4-1 header really let it make great power at lowish boost levels. Which meant a lot less heat generated.
TonyG
I made 410 rwhp on 18 psi with E85 with the stock IC, stock cam, stock headers, stock TB, stock intake and a 2.5" exhaust with a WG dump.
This was also with my high flow, low cost head (Turbo 8V head, 47 mm VTM intake valves, self ported) and it was a 2.85L Hybrid Stroker.
Last edited by refresh951; 03-04-2013 at 11:20 PM.
03-04-2013, 11:17 PM
#305
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Comment on intake manifolds: I understand you're trying to determine whether the stock or slightly modified intake will support your power goals. The answer is yes, if you give it enough boost. But... since the turbo is such a good heat generator, the real challenge is to manage that heat so the engine stays happy at your power level for more than the short term. The easiest way to do this is to keep the boost down. So back to the intake... More air into this 951 air pump, and more air out means mo' powah. You need to identify the biggest restrictions, and address them. Yes, mind the budget, and don't throw away $ on porting your intake if the air filter box won't support the CFM needed (just an example). Someone needs to step up and do some scientific testing on a proper flow bench with a proper operator. Any other approach is just guessing, and very likely requires more boost than necessary.
I've got some flow numbers with mildly modified 944 and 951 heads. Back to back dyno testing says the mods are worth power relative to unmodified heads. That's fine, but the question you need answered is can a XXX cfm airflow at XXhg support xxx hp? What does your intake system (complete from air cleaner to cylinder flow? What does your exhaust (from cylinder to tip of exhaust pipe) flow? Where are the restrictions?
If I may, (and it's okay with Robstah), these are the things you might want to be thinking about.
I've got some flow numbers with mildly modified 944 and 951 heads. Back to back dyno testing says the mods are worth power relative to unmodified heads. That's fine, but the question you need answered is can a XXX cfm airflow at XXhg support xxx hp? What does your intake system (complete from air cleaner to cylinder flow? What does your exhaust (from cylinder to tip of exhaust pipe) flow? Where are the restrictions?
If I may, (and it's okay with Robstah), these are the things you might want to be thinking about.
03-04-2013, 11:56 PM
#306
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Good info Tony. Thanks! Can you share specific flow numbers?
I made 410 rwhp on 18 psi with E85 with the stock IC, stock cam, stock headers, stock TB, stock intake and a 2.5" exhaust with a WG dump.
This was also with my high flow, low cost head (Turbo 8V head, 47 mm VTM intake valves, self ported) and it was a 2.85L Hybrid Stroker.
I made 410 rwhp on 18 psi with E85 with the stock IC, stock cam, stock headers, stock TB, stock intake and a 2.5" exhaust with a WG dump.
This was also with my high flow, low cost head (Turbo 8V head, 47 mm VTM intake valves, self ported) and it was a 2.85L Hybrid Stroker.
And 91 octane pump California gas, requires a very careful balance of retarding ignition timing vs EGT's. With E85, that ain't the case. You can run a LOT more timing. And get away cam timing that you could never use on pump gas. And make a lot more power.
I just don't have E85 out here. If it did, for sure that's the way I'd go. For me... E85, in terms availability.... is like having rely on VP race fuel.
I'll see if I can dig up the intake and head flow numbers. It's been about 10 years since I got rid of the car.
TonyG
03-05-2013, 12:01 AM
#307
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mine was a 2.5 stock bore, stock stroke, stock pistons, stock intake/exhaust valves, stock interooler.
And 91 octane pump California gas, requires a very careful balance of retarding ignition timing vs EGT's. With E85, that ain't the case. You can run a LOT more timing. And get away cam timing that you could never use on pump gas. And make a lot more power.
I just don't have E85 out here. If it did, for sure that's the way I'd go. For me... E85, in terms availability.... is like having rely on VP race fuel.
I'll see if I can dig up the intake and head flow numbers. It's been about 10 years since I got rid of the car.
TonyG
And 91 octane pump California gas, requires a very careful balance of retarding ignition timing vs EGT's. With E85, that ain't the case. You can run a LOT more timing. And get away cam timing that you could never use on pump gas. And make a lot more power.
I just don't have E85 out here. If it did, for sure that's the way I'd go. For me... E85, in terms availability.... is like having rely on VP race fuel.
I'll see if I can dig up the intake and head flow numbers. It's been about 10 years since I got rid of the car.
TonyG
03-05-2013, 12:44 AM
#308
Rennlist Member
Again, with all due respect to relevant parties, this is why it's too hard to compare whp figures via dynos at least.
Here we have Tony getting 420whp on pump gas 10 years ago on probably older electronics (not sure of turbo?) where I had 355whp with similar engine specs (although n/a non ceramic head(?)) Garrett GT3076, bigger cam, intercooler, 4" SFR exhaust, E85 at 24psi with Motec management.
There are obviously other mitigating circumstances but the differences are ridiculous. I'd prefer to use the same equation as Sid.
Here we have Tony getting 420whp on pump gas 10 years ago on probably older electronics (not sure of turbo?) where I had 355whp with similar engine specs (although n/a non ceramic head(?)) Garrett GT3076, bigger cam, intercooler, 4" SFR exhaust, E85 at 24psi with Motec management.
There are obviously other mitigating circumstances but the differences are ridiculous. I'd prefer to use the same equation as Sid.
03-05-2013, 12:59 AM
#309
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Hey... the funny thing is...
I had a Gtech Pro in the car mentioned above. Look at what the screen printed out for power. The look at the actual dyno chart. Pretty amazing how close it was.
TonyG
...
I had a Gtech Pro in the car mentioned above. Look at what the screen printed out for power. The look at the actual dyno chart. Pretty amazing how close it was.
TonyG
...
03-05-2013, 01:04 AM
#310
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Again, with all due respect to relevant parties, this is why it's too hard to compare whp figures via dynos at least.
Here we have Tony getting 420whp on pump gas 10 years ago on probably older electronics (not sure of turbo?) where I had 355whp with similar engine specs (although n/a non ceramic head(?)) Garrett GT3076, bigger cam, intercooler, 4" SFR exhaust, E85 at 24psi with Motec management.
There are obviously other mitigating circumstances but the differences are ridiculous. I'd prefer to use the same equation as Sid.
Here we have Tony getting 420whp on pump gas 10 years ago on probably older electronics (not sure of turbo?) where I had 355whp with similar engine specs (although n/a non ceramic head(?)) Garrett GT3076, bigger cam, intercooler, 4" SFR exhaust, E85 at 24psi with Motec management.
There are obviously other mitigating circumstances but the differences are ridiculous. I'd prefer to use the same equation as Sid.
Ford MAF with PowerPefect piggy back on a stock ECU with Huntley Racing chips, siemens 72lbs injectors on a stock fuel pressure regulator
(how times have changed... but it does go to show that the older stuff does work...)TonyG
03-05-2013, 04:17 AM
#311
Rennlist Member
Oh I have no doubt that you got that motor to work well. I just can't reconcile the Massive differences in dyno outputs. Unless somewhere along the line I was getting huge backpressure I was soooo far behind your results with better equipment at a substantially higher boost pressure and race grade E85. Even when the dyno operator did a 'fudged' pull with an instant increase of 30whp it was still only 383whp at about 24psi. I've seen other cars down here with similar disappointing results by comparison to some of you guy's numbers. That's why I'm more inclined to trust a roll on acceleration 100-200kmh time or Sid's standing quarter.
Again, no offence intended whatsoever. Can't wait to see the results of Shawn's motor and the gains that further mods obtain.
Again, no offence intended whatsoever. Can't wait to see the results of Shawn's motor and the gains that further mods obtain.
03-05-2013, 04:42 AM
#312
Comment on intake manifolds: I understand you're trying to determine whether the stock or slightly modified intake will support your power goals. The answer is yes, if you give it enough boost. But... since the turbo is such a good heat generator, the real challenge is to manage that heat so the engine stays happy at your power level for more than the short term. The easiest way to do this is to keep the boost down. So back to the intake... More air into this 951 air pump, and more air out means mo' powah. You need to identify the biggest restrictions, and address them.
Last edited by Thom; 03-05-2013 at 02:04 PM.
03-05-2013, 12:36 PM
#314
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
03-09-2013, 09:49 PM
#315
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Completed my refurb wire harness. This is a LOT of work. Huge under-taking but really happy with the final product (hope I did not make any mistakes ). I found so many lurking potential problems with my old harness. I think in the long run the time spent will avoid a lot of issues down the road. I also like that all my mod stuff will just plug into the harness.
Rogue sent my DME back with the Tuner and Logger. This setup is going to be awesome. The logger will come in handy to troubleshoot the harness if necessary.
Chris (ChrisJ951) came over today and helped me install the motor.
Everything went very smooth. If all goes well, first start will be next weekend.
). I found so many lurking potential problems with my old harness. I think in the long run the time spent will avoid a lot of issues down the road. I also like that all my mod stuff will just plug into the harness.Rogue sent my DME back with the Tuner and Logger. This setup is going to be awesome
. The logger will come in handy to troubleshoot the harness if necessary.Chris (ChrisJ951) came over today and helped me install the motor.
Everything went very smooth. If all goes well, first start will be next weekend.