Eric_k

Yes, basically. The longer pins and a bar like Bruce's are about the best you can do for 'off the shelf' parts that can be bolted on. More sophisticated solutions require non-trivial amounts of custom fabrication and engineering.

Cloud9...68

You mean like some of these guys' creations?:

http://www.motorwerksracing.com/

From their web site, this place looks like the Porsche tuner version of ***** Wonka's Chocolate Factory. As soon as my lap times are consistently within 0.5% on the pro's at the track I use, and I get in on the ground floor of the next bitcoin-like phenomen, I'm there!

Weston Dillard

I have been remiss in getting back to you guys about my experience with Bruce's bar. Work really cuts into my play time. :-)

For what it's worth, I was primarily interested in improved forward bite. I have done a race weekend at Hallett and a DE weekend at COTA. 6 days total. Lots of sliding over rumbles and a bit of curb hopping on both tracks and everything has held up well. I really haven't had a chance to tune it properly and am trying to find a time to get out and do some proper testing. TWS closing didn't help matters either as I'm now trying to gather data on tracks where I have a lot less time.

More to come as I have it.

West

Cloud9...68

Hi West,

Thanks for the update. I assume you have the longer ball joint pins to level your A-arms. If so, did you install the longer pins before you installed the torsion delete bar, or did you do them at the same time?

Also, Have you considered Driveway Austin? Yes, they make you take a $400 class, which you could teach in your sleep, just to be allowed to drive on the track, but once you've done that, you have unlimited access to use the track whenever you want for a very reasonable fee, which would make it ideal for tuning. It's three miles from where I work, so I sneak out to do a session during lunch about once a week, and I also get out there most Saturdays.

95ONE

Haven't checked back in a while. Great discussions and some really old discussion that seem to never end. It's all in fun. I asked Weston to beat the bar up as much as he could without hurting his car. The bar I make is suppose to do 3 things.

Be lighter
Help with geometry when lowered
Ensure consistent handling with a true Spherical bearing solution.

I'm hoping Weston has fun somewhere in between.

I'm back to trying to finish my car again, and It is no longer for sale. Mid summer is the goal. Thanks for all your kind words and thoughts. It seems to be helping.

Max Energy

Bruce,
I am happy to hear that your project is BACK!!!!
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
Max

Weston Dillard

Cloud9 - After several balljoint pin failures over the last 15 years, I decided to stick with the stock geometry. I wanted to go with the modified spindles that Disasterman uses from Midwest Eurosport, but the $1600 price for the mod backed me off the plate. Maybe later. So I suppose my front and rear roll centers may be screwn up now. I hope my car doesn't break in half. :-) I may have to reconsider Driveway or H2R.

Bruce - glad to hear you are keeping the car!

West

Droops83

Not sure if you saw this thread from a few years ago, but I something similar to the front spindles, but minus the extra gusset of the version that you mention. Much better than a long ball joint pin located by nothing but the factory pinch bolt!

https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...-solution.html

Chris

racer466

Is this bar or Bruces Bar still being produced??

Max Energy

Yes,
I have one brand new extra one complete for sale.
Currently have two on cars working great
Max George
225 573-0664
maxenergy@***.net

geno

Does this bar look like it has been updated or should I look to have Bruce reinforce it?

Cloud9...68

I think I bought one of the last of Bruce's bars, and mine is different from yours. It has a pair of large tabs with two holes opposite the trailing arm inner mounting locations. I would post a picture, but I have lost my ability to post images on this site. If you'd send me your email in an IM, I'd be happy to email them to you.

I've asked several people via IM some questions about their experiences with Bruce's bar, but very few people have responded, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to ask them of the community. For those of you who have installed the bar,

1. Did everyone do it in conjunction with some method of raising the front roll center (longer ball joint pins, raising the steering rack, etc.)?
2. What changes in handling did you notice after installing the rear bar? The shorter roll couple as a result of higher roll center should improve rear grip, leading to more of an understeering attitude, I would think, but I'm wondering how strong of an effect this really is
3. What adjustments, if any, did you make to front/rear spring stiffness, sway bar stiffness, front/rear ride height, shock compression/rebound settings, etc. as a direct result of the impact of the rear bar? I realize this is an iterative process that everybody has to work through on their own, but I'm curious as to peoples' general experiences with this.
4. Finally, and most importantly, how much of a reduction in lap times, if any, did you see that you could attribute to the bar?

I bought my bar about nine months ago, but haven't installed it, for several reasons, but plan to soon. I see it as part of a complete package, as I'll go ahead and describe now. My car is lowered quite a bit from stock, so its front roll center is now nearly an inch below ground. Karl Poeltl, from whom I bought all my suspension upgrades, suggested I stick with the stock ball joint pins because of the complexities and interactions with other suspension factors involved with raising the front center on a lowered car back to stock height, particularly the need to do the same thing in the back to balance out the roll axis. So, he recommended very stiff springs front and back (700/1000 lb/in front/rear) to counter the tendency to sway as a result of the long front roll couple. Later on, I went to a square wheel set-up, which pushed my car to a pretty strong oversteer bias, which in conjunction with the stiff springs, ended up making the car twitchy and a handful to control. So I took the car to an experienced suspension tuner who recommended softening the rear spring to 800 lb/in, aligned and corner balanced the car, and did a good job of tweaking the compression/rebound settings on my Moton Clubsports (the only adjustment he had to work with at the time) to where the car is now much more forgiving and controllable - a huge improvement.

But it bothers me that my car is heavily "compensated" for the impact of the ride height, and non-stock wheel set-up. Both compression and rebound are set to full soft, front and rear, which bugs me, but the car seems to be happy with this set-up. So, because I'm an engineer and can't leave well enough alone, I'd like to get out of the current "compensated" mode, and get the control arms level via longer ball joint pins, along with a bump steer kit to get the tie rod bars level with the control arms. At the same time, I want to install springs that give suspension frequencies closer to the recommended 150/135 cpm f/r for a non-aero car like mine (the rear is now probably close to 135 cpm, but the front is probably significantly higher than 150), and use the adjustable front and rear sway bars my car now has to balance the front/rear roll stiffness to work well with my square wheel set-up. Bruce's bar should hopefully get the roll axis near optimal, which is why I view it as a foundational part of optimizing my suspension package. But this is also part of the reason it's taken me so long to install the bar - because so many other things have to be done at the same time for everything to work in harmony, at least theoretically. Hopefully, this will allow me to move the compression and rebound settings on my struts and shocks closer to the centers of their ranges, which will give me room in both directions to do fine tuning.

Sorry for the long story, but that's my situation, and am curious as to how it compares to what other people who have bought and installed Bruce's bar have done.

951and944S

Change the weight of shock oil to bring them to center of range...., simple.

T

Cloud9...68

Good suggestion - thanks. They're do for a rebuild before too long, so I'll mention it to the shop.

951and944S

Why don't you just go ahead and strip that thing down and quit wasting time....

BTW, what pressure do you have in the canisters...?

T