TonyG > New Race Car Build Thread
08-27-2012, 07:48 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Thats heavier than your average passenger at 6lbs* 35 gallons= 210lbs....and thats not including the weight of the cell.
08-27-2012, 10:28 PM
#62
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
Lots of clubs have races that run well in excess of an hour. NASA runs a 100 mile enduro, the POC runs a 4 hour enduro race. These are big races.
It's much much faster to carry more fuel at a slightly slower pace than it is to pit for fuel multiple times. Avoiding pit stops is a major factor in winning endurance races.
Besides... when I'm not running an endurance race... I just won't carry a lot of fuel.
As far as additional ballast goes... yes..... it's also ballast, but that's not the primary reason.
If you're in the top 3 in your class, you go straight to the scales after impound.
TonyG
09-04-2012, 08:46 PM
#66
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
Correct.
But it's irrelevant as it will only be run full at an enduro race where the additional weight of the fuel is a small price to pay for the ability to not have to make a fuel stop (or two).
In all other races, typical 15-20 lap races, the fuel cell will only get maybe 10-12 gallons put in. So yes there is additional weight due to the fuel cell itself, but that doesn't really matter much it can just be considered ballast since I'll have to add weight the car anyway.
TonyG
09-05-2012, 06:02 PM
#68
Three Wheelin'
Correct.
But it's irrelevant as it will only be run full at an enduro race where the additional weight of the fuel is a small price to pay for the ability to not have to make a fuel stop (or two).
In all other races, typical 15-20 lap races, the fuel cell will only get maybe 10-12 gallons put in. So yes there is additional weight due to the fuel cell itself, but that doesn't really matter much it can just be considered ballast since I'll have to add weight the car anyway.
TonyG
But it's irrelevant as it will only be run full at an enduro race where the additional weight of the fuel is a small price to pay for the ability to not have to make a fuel stop (or two).
In all other races, typical 15-20 lap races, the fuel cell will only get maybe 10-12 gallons put in. So yes there is additional weight due to the fuel cell itself, but that doesn't really matter much it can just be considered ballast since I'll have to add weight the car anyway.
TonyG
09-05-2012, 08:19 PM
#69
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
Also... any fuel spill or mph in excess of 30mph in the hot pit requires a 2 minute penalty (from the time you reach the black flag station on the hot pit lane). Thus eliminating 4 fuel stops reduces the chances of a penalty (either in exceeding the 30mph speed limit or spilling any fuel).
All of the above is for the Tribute to Lemans 4 hour enduo race.
Even at smaller races where the normal club enduro race is 100 miles... I would still save at least 1 fuel stop if not 2 depending on the track.
Combined this with the fact that the car is under weight to begin wiith and you can see why these cars are done this way.
... As they say... the races are won in the pits. And nobody wins these races without carrying a lot of fuel for this exact reason.
TonyG
Last edited by TonyG; 09-06-2012 at 10:43 PM.
09-06-2012, 10:46 PM
#70
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
Fuel cell firewall enclosure done. Also trial fit new dual master cylinder mount.
The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.
NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....
TonyG
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The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.
NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....
TonyG
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.
.
09-06-2012, 10:59 PM
#71
Burning Brakes
Fuel cell firewall enclosure done. Also trial fit new dual master cylinder mount.
The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.
NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....
TonyG
.
.
.
The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.
NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....
TonyG
.
.
.
09-06-2012, 11:05 PM
#72
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
I really wanted as much weight as possible as centered and as far back as possible.
There might be enough room now. If not, we'll build a slightly offset shifter handle.
TonyG
09-06-2012, 11:58 PM
#73
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
You're right. It is a joke.
I'll pass on your arm-chair engineering excellence to the people that built it... you know... the same people up until a few years ago, built ALL of the fuel cells for the cup cars for Fuel Safe.
Oh... and the same people that also built the fastest 944 ever built (by far).
And I almost forgot..... the same people that used that exact same design on the cup car last year that won the biggest Porsche club enduro race ..... you know... the one with the pro drivers.
Yeah.... you're right. They are a joke.
TonyG
I'll pass on your arm-chair engineering excellence to the people that built it... you know... the same people up until a few years ago, built ALL of the fuel cells for the cup cars for Fuel Safe.
Oh... and the same people that also built the fastest 944 ever built (by far).
And I almost forgot..... the same people that used that exact same design on the cup car last year that won the biggest Porsche club enduro race ..... you know... the one with the pro drivers.
Yeah.... you're right. They are a joke.
TonyG
09-07-2012, 01:32 AM
#74
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
1. NASA has already approved this design. It's already been raced in NASA in either the GT or ST classes.
2. Any fuel limit constraints are what they are. Some clubs / race classes may have them. Some may not. So what? The car needs to add weight anyway. The fuel cell isn't considered ballast, thus it doesn't contribute to the maximum allowable ballast rule. This is a 35 gallon fuel cell that's easily removable if not needed since there are two different fuel cells on the car.
3. As far as safety goes... I think the that the people that actually made all of the fuel cells for Fuel Safe for all of the Porsche Cup Cars... which is who made this firewall enclosure for the Fuel Safe fuel cell.... are far more qualified to determine what is safe than anybody else. The fact that it was built by those same people... pretty much gives it all of the certification it needs in any club. Not to mention that everybody that's anybody knows the person that owns the company that built this. So it's a trivial issue.
4. Yes the car is built for a specific class in POC (which has a corresponding class in NASA) which the fastest class available just below the open/unlimited class. And it's now optioned with the ability to carry a lot more fuel (if needed) to compete with the big boys in the endurance races (which happens to have a **** load of great contingency stuff/money).
5. What you are seeing is not the fuel cell. It's the firewall that encapsulates the fuel cell (not shown). The actual fuel cell can be pulled out in a few minutes of not needed.
And the actual fuel cell... has a bladder as well as the standard enclosure. Both of which get located in the firewall shown in the pics....
The other fuel cell (the standard smaller fuel cell.. currently 17 gallons) is located directly above the transaxle behind the drivers firewall. And as an additional FYI... about 4"-5" of the torque tube and transaxle bell housing have been cut down to allow the fuel cell to sit that much lower, as well as the actual fuel cell housing having a 2" recess cut and welded in... thus allowing the "small" fuel cell to sit about 6"-7" closer to the ground than could be accomplished otherwise.
6. Here's a pic of their GT1 (the unlimited class) Boxter. It's got a factory 500HP 4.0L RSR motor, and full 997 GT3 front and rear suspension. This will be the car to beat. Note the location of the fuel cell.
The car is far more complete now. I'll dig up a more current photo.
Notice the resemblance to my 951 (as well as to ORCA)?
TonyG
2. Any fuel limit constraints are what they are. Some clubs / race classes may have them. Some may not. So what? The car needs to add weight anyway. The fuel cell isn't considered ballast, thus it doesn't contribute to the maximum allowable ballast rule. This is a 35 gallon fuel cell that's easily removable if not needed since there are two different fuel cells on the car.
3. As far as safety goes... I think the that the people that actually made all of the fuel cells for Fuel Safe for all of the Porsche Cup Cars... which is who made this firewall enclosure for the Fuel Safe fuel cell.... are far more qualified to determine what is safe than anybody else. The fact that it was built by those same people... pretty much gives it all of the certification it needs in any club. Not to mention that everybody that's anybody knows the person that owns the company that built this. So it's a trivial issue.
4. Yes the car is built for a specific class in POC (which has a corresponding class in NASA) which the fastest class available just below the open/unlimited class. And it's now optioned with the ability to carry a lot more fuel (if needed) to compete with the big boys in the endurance races (which happens to have a **** load of great contingency stuff/money).
5. What you are seeing is not the fuel cell. It's the firewall that encapsulates the fuel cell (not shown). The actual fuel cell can be pulled out in a few minutes of not needed.
And the actual fuel cell... has a bladder as well as the standard enclosure. Both of which get located in the firewall shown in the pics....
The other fuel cell (the standard smaller fuel cell.. currently 17 gallons) is located directly above the transaxle behind the drivers firewall. And as an additional FYI... about 4"-5" of the torque tube and transaxle bell housing have been cut down to allow the fuel cell to sit that much lower, as well as the actual fuel cell housing having a 2" recess cut and welded in... thus allowing the "small" fuel cell to sit about 6"-7" closer to the ground than could be accomplished otherwise.
6. Here's a pic of their GT1 (the unlimited class) Boxter. It's got a factory 500HP 4.0L RSR motor, and full 997 GT3 front and rear suspension. This will be the car to beat. Note the location of the fuel cell.
The car is far more complete now. I'll dig up a more current photo.
Notice the resemblance to my 951 (as well as to ORCA)?
TonyG
I don't care who makes the fuel cells. I care about the location of the fuel cell. You obviously can't comprehend that bit.
How about this. Show me a picture of a race car that has their tank located where you are installing yours.
Since you mentioned NASA enduro (per their regulations):
3.4. Fuel tanks / cells
The Race Director reserves the right to impose certain requirements on those cars with gas tanks (or fuel cell) significantly larger than originally equipped. Teams that have installed tanks (or fuel cells) larger than stock, and are entered in E0, E1, E2, or E3 class, may be required to drain the tank and fill it with the same amount of fuel that the original stock tank held. Additionally, teams are cautioned that modifying or substituting the OEM tank can be illegal in some class rules; and could also be deemed a safety hazard. No vehicle may have more than two fuel tanks and/ or cells. No vehicle may carry more than forty four (44) gallons of fuel at any given time.
Majority of endurance racing has a limit on tank size. I've seen 24 hour enduros have a 25gal limit.
Seriously though, are you just building this thing just to build it or are you actually building it to compete in a class?
How about this. Show me a picture of a race car that has their tank located where you are installing yours.
Since you mentioned NASA enduro (per their regulations):
3.4. Fuel tanks / cells
The Race Director reserves the right to impose certain requirements on those cars with gas tanks (or fuel cell) significantly larger than originally equipped. Teams that have installed tanks (or fuel cells) larger than stock, and are entered in E0, E1, E2, or E3 class, may be required to drain the tank and fill it with the same amount of fuel that the original stock tank held. Additionally, teams are cautioned that modifying or substituting the OEM tank can be illegal in some class rules; and could also be deemed a safety hazard. No vehicle may have more than two fuel tanks and/ or cells. No vehicle may carry more than forty four (44) gallons of fuel at any given time.
Majority of endurance racing has a limit on tank size. I've seen 24 hour enduros have a 25gal limit.
Seriously though, are you just building this thing just to build it or are you actually building it to compete in a class?
09-07-2012, 03:14 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
