TonyG > New Race Car Build Thread
09-13-2013, 09:21 AM
#751
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It is indeed hard to beat the logic behind the LS-engine. But logic also tells me I should have gotten a 996 Cup instead and have more spare time and more money to spend elsewhere. Damn it, damn that logic to hell!
Side note. Cost and reliability aside, a 3.0l 16v turbo engine is fantastic to drive and beats pretty much any LS engine except a high end worked machine. (Comparing torque at 2500 rpm is just meaningless for a track car.)
Side note. Cost and reliability aside, a 3.0l 16v turbo engine is fantastic to drive and beats pretty much any LS engine except a high end worked machine. (Comparing torque at 2500 rpm is just meaningless for a track car.)
If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.
so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
09-13-2013, 11:16 AM
#754
Nordschleife Master
That's great except for the small detail that the engines need to be rebuilt ever 30 hours (which is about one full season of track time). The cost: $22k USD if you don't blow it up/badly over rev it.
You have no ideal how many friends I have that go through this every year.
And... don't forget about the sequential trans. That too gets serviced to a tune of close to $15k every season and a half +/- depending on how you shift.
And.... last but not least... racing fuel at $10/gal (vs $4/gal for pump), there's another $4000/year in fuel costs.
So say... an additional $40k per year to run the Cup Car over what I've built... which is... btw... why I built my car in the first place :-)
There are several tracks that have slow turns where I come out of the corner at 3000rpms (in order to stay out of 2nd gear). This is what gives me that advantage over a Cup Car with a sequential box and the only thing that saves me. They have to shift... I don't.
If I had a regular H pattern trans and had to shift, they would kill me just in the time it take to shift.
Once I put in a 496 LS7 with over 500ft/lbs at 3000rpms... it's gonna be bad news for them when I pull out of the turn at 3000rpms and pull to over 7000rpms w/o shifting.
TonyG
You have no ideal how many friends I have that go through this every year.
And... don't forget about the sequential trans. That too gets serviced to a tune of close to $15k every season and a half +/- depending on how you shift.
And.... last but not least... racing fuel at $10/gal (vs $4/gal for pump), there's another $4000/year in fuel costs.
So say... an additional $40k per year to run the Cup Car over what I've built... which is... btw... why I built my car in the first place :-)
There are several tracks that have slow turns where I come out of the corner at 3000rpms (in order to stay out of 2nd gear). This is what gives me that advantage over a Cup Car with a sequential box and the only thing that saves me. They have to shift... I don't.
If I had a regular H pattern trans and had to shift, they would kill me just in the time it take to shift.
Once I put in a 496 LS7 with over 500ft/lbs at 3000rpms... it's gonna be bad news for them when I pull out of the turn at 3000rpms and pull to over 7000rpms w/o shifting.
TonyG
In Europe the Cup cars are running on regular fuel, seems odd that you run on race fuel in the US given the engine is very close to the street engine.
So yes, to run the Cup cars in official race trim and recommended maintenance it's very costly. But I think it's safe to say that it is not necessary for the average joe the same way as I don't send my Öhlins shocks for a yearly $800 service, run race fuel in my car or buy $3k worth of new slicks for each event. Would be nice though
09-13-2013, 02:04 PM
#755
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I know a few people with cup cars and the 30 hours maintenance is highly overrated. I haven't heard of anyone doing it in the more grassroots series. But yes, the 997's with seq boxes increase the maintenance costs a lot.
In Europe the Cup cars are running on regular fuel, seems odd that you run on race fuel in the US given the engine is very close to the street engine.
So yes, to run the Cup cars in official race trim and recommended maintenance it's very costly. But I think it's safe to say that it is not necessary for the average joe the same way as I don't send my Öhlins shocks for a yearly $800 service, run race fuel in my car or buy $3k worth of new slicks for each event. Would be nice though
In Europe the Cup cars are running on regular fuel, seems odd that you run on race fuel in the US given the engine is very close to the street engine.
So yes, to run the Cup cars in official race trim and recommended maintenance it's very costly. But I think it's safe to say that it is not necessary for the average joe the same way as I don't send my Öhlins shocks for a yearly $800 service, run race fuel in my car or buy $3k worth of new slicks for each event. Would be nice though
Tires: If you're not running a new set of Michelin's each weekend, you're not ever going to win a race. Not in the classes I race in. Not unless the top 10 cars crash or blow up.
With respect to service times: I know quite a few people that have paid a big price for not sticking to the service schedule. And I know quite a few people that have not and have gotten away with it. But for those who didn't get lucky .... not good $$$
I'm sitting in Vision Motorsports as I write this and there are a stack of Cup engines getting serviced in the engine room. Glad none of them are mine :-)
On the other side of the equation... the reason I'm at Vision Motorsports now is because the GM engine shop (RPM Motors) pulled the pan to service the main and rod bearings after 2 1/2 seasons of track time. So since they are pulling the oil pan, I took the oil pan to Vision to get a couple of bungs welded in it.
Anyway... the GM engine shop called and said there's no need to replace the main or rod bearings.. The rod and main bearings look brand new. They told me not to replace them. So with that, and the leak down between 1%-3%, the only thing to replace are the valve springs.
That would never be the case with a Cup motor with that kind of time on it.
Total service cost after 2 1/2 seasons of racing: <$750 ish
TonyG
09-13-2013, 05:21 PM
#756
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
No... but I seriously thought about shortening the torque tube, cutting the firewall, and moving the engine back another 6".
The only reason I didn't is because there are some classes where the firewall can't be altered.
TonyG
The only reason I didn't is because there are some classes where the firewall can't be altered.
TonyG
09-13-2013, 06:14 PM
#757
Rennlist Member
If you buy a Cup Car then you would just be another Cup Car driver....nothing interesting in that, anybody with a checkbook can be a Cup Car driver.
If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.
so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.
so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
09-13-2013, 07:44 PM
#758
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.
so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
TonyG
09-13-2013, 10:41 PM
#761
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09-13-2013, 10:45 PM
#762
Rennlist Junkie Forever
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.cGE&cad=rja
TonyG
09-13-2013, 11:53 PM
#764
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
2265lbs dry without driver.
200lbs more on the front axle than the rear. And that ratio will change once there are fluids in the car. Especially fuel.
TonyG
200lbs more on the front axle than the rear. And that ratio will change once there are fluids in the car. Especially fuel.
TonyG
09-14-2013, 12:39 AM
#765
Rennlist Member
How much do you allow for fluids? That's very light with all the additions you've made.